everyone in the house is going to be pissed when i build my next computer and get a $200 discrete sound card for it with a built in high impedance capable amp and external controler

but idc because im an audiophile at heart, just a broke mofo...

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@plausocks i'd go for a usb dac personally. get those audio-processing electronics as far outside your noisy pc case as possible!

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@trwnh i am 1750% against usb audio hardware as it's never good for anything except the most basic audio processing. it doesnt have enough power for higher impedance, you're lucky to get 8 ohm capable out of it, and its usb so its a lower priority than anything else. ive tried usb audio in the past and its always been terrible. its gotten better but especially on linux its still crap and glitches out...

plus on top of that the quality of sound is never that great

@Elizafox @plausocks ive found that anything inside the case is prone to noisy interference and anything outside the case tends to be a cleaner signal

@trwnh @Elizafox a proper dedicated sound card of the caliber im looking at has shielding for in-case noise supression, plus i tend to go for higher quality components in the first place to reduce how much noise there is anyway.

a good motherboard and power supply go a LONG way to reducing electrical noise

@plausocks @trwnh @Elizafox it doesn't help you at all since I doubt PPC64 would work for you but the Talos board is engineered to have zero noise and you can really notice. I went with a midrange sound blaster and it sounds as good as the higher end one in that because there really is zero noise. Combined with an EVGA 80 GOLD PSU the thing is whisper quiet in the case (fans only come on when I'm building LLVM or Firefox) and combining the quiet comp with clear audio is πŸ’“

@plausocks @trwnh @Elizafox πŸ‘πŸ»

go threadripper if you must x86

Intel can suck a butt. And not a hot one

@awilfox @trwnh @Elizafox oh i plan on going ryzen or threadripper at the very least, although i may be forced into another intel system until my budget can allow.

my current desktop is kaput and idk if its the psu or not, probably going to test it tomorow. if its not the psu im probably going to buy an old enterprise desktop with an i7 just as a quick replacement and then build a system when we have the finances.

if its just the psu then im buying the first part for my new build early and putting it in my current build

my dumbass spilled coffee on everything (wasnt plugged in) im hoping its something simple because i cleaned all the coffee i could see with cleaner and iso

@awilfox also plan on not using nvidia on my next build too, even if it means somewhat lesser performance, im pretty upset with nvidia's lack of care for linux and tbqh nvidia and intel are essentially the amazon of computer parts

@plausocks nvidia also has literal malware in their binary drivers for both windows and linux so.... lol

@plausocks @awilfox even a ryzen 7 3700x turned out to be overkill for what I use it for which is mostly just compiling rust, firefox, qtwebkit, and libreoffice

@plausocks @awilfox I guess it makes more sense then. But I just replaced a 3.5 year old i5-6600K with a ryzen 7 3700x and also replaced a macbook with an asus gaming laptop because I love hemmoraging money and I hate the environment

@plausocks I have the impulse control of a freshly disembodied tentacle just ask @Elizafox about the gino's incident

@trwnh mind you i was using ps/2 for keyboard and mouse for the longest time because back in the day USB HID was crap and often was laggy as hell, and if your cpu was under heavy load one of the first things to drop to a lower priority was USB hardware (still is, but not as big of a problem)

plus it takes up a usb port which i hate

@plausocks @trwnh I'd mail you my $200-when-it-was-new Aureal card but I haven't dared touch it since it glitched out one time at full volume

they're like $5 on ebay last I checked cause they don't have windows drivers but it's the best-sounding shit I've ever used

@flussence @trwnh i was looking at something in the range of the Sound Blaster ZxR...

124dB SNR, 600ohm capable headphone driver, 123dB ADC, 24 bit 192khz output, 100hz to 24khz beam forming microphone built into the control unit 🀀 🀀 🀀 🀀 🀀 🀀 🀀 🀀 🀀 🀀 🀀

@plausocks @trwnh THANK

You have no idea how many people poopoo me for saying this, the truth. USB is fine for consumers but you will never get the best sound out of it. Music gives me life, I need something better than a crap USB DAC can give

@awilfox @plausocks @trwnh I assume you're complaining about usb-powered devices instead of just using usb as an interface.

@steph @trwnh @awilfox usb as an interface is given a low enough priority to make me hate it for lag and quality sensitive applications such as audio.

used to be bad enough that usb mice and keyboards would lag and not register movement or keypresses under heavier loads although thats not really an issue these days. still can be for audio though. something directly on the pcie bus doesnt suffer from that.

@plausocks @trwnh @awilfox yeah it does make a difference when your computer is locking up but it shouldn't at other times.

And all the best price to performance dacs these days exist as usb hardware. I wouldn't pay the extra just for the few benefits of pcie

@steph @trwnh @plausocks and that's your decision to make, but that doesn't mean usb is automatically better just because it is cheaper. And that's what me and plau are saying. We are willing to pay the extra for those benefits.

I even conceded earlier in the thread that usb might work for normal people listening to YouTube but for me, I derive a lot of happiness from high quality low latency audio and that's worth pcie for me.

@awilfox @trwnh @plausocks but I don't think there is a predictable difference unless your computer is at about load average 20, in which case you have more problems.
@awilfox @plausocks @trwnh I just wish there was some datasets on this to draw conclusions from instead of guessing

@steph @trwnh @plausocks or you have a web browser open

That's not even a shitpost. My literal job irl involved performance tuning Linux software and the modern web is basically a CPU intensive cache thrashing gadget that has a side effect of displaying emails and discord conversations.

Anyway I have run into usb audio lag on my Mac mini in 2012 when the system was otherwise idle. USB 3 would fix some but not all of this

@steph @trwnh @awilfox i feel that a lot of the benefits come from being on pcie...

no external dongles if you dont want them, higher output power, rca, toslink, lower latency, almost zero chance for stuttering, ability to drive higher impedance headphones without a secondary external amp, plus most usb dacs in an affordable price range suck ass for one reason or another and by the time you start getting into usb dacs that can do most of what I want you might as well pay the same or slightly more for a pcie based implementation...

@plausocks @trwnh @awilfox well when you get a pcie soundcard you#re really getting a dac + amp

im just not sure if anything comes close to jds atom + a $50 usb dac for $150

thats certainly got enough power
@plausocks @trwnh @awilfox at that price i probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two.

and having it integrated into the chassis is certainly a big +

@steph @trwnh @awilfox also it's not just when your computer is locking up, high CPU load is only part of the story, high memory load will fuck it up too, as can high disk load. plus most USB dacs can easily suffer from buffer underrun due to packaging not allowing for lots of buffer memory.

@steph @trwnh @awilfox
I think @plausocks also mentioned something about priority...

USB is polling-based, right? It can't do interrupts, and I've heard it has bad latency when used for input devices (compared to PS/2) so I wouldn't be surprised if it also had bad latency when used for audio.

OTOH, since when do audiophiles care about latency? In pro-audio usecase, eg. when recording live performance, sure, latency matters. But when just listening to pre-recorded music, wouldn't it make sense to slap a huge buffer onto the DAC, so that it never underruns, no matter how shitty the path to the CPU is?

@Wolf480pl @trwnh @awilfox @plausocks I don't know how usb audio works but I think that they do have large buffers

@Wolf480pl @steph @trwnh @plausocks you really wouldn't think you'd notice latency playing back recorded audio but you do.

Adjusting the volume isn't instant. Play/pause isn't instant. Switching tracks isn't instant. Adjusting the EQ isn't instant. Human perception obviously varies based on situation and individual but 60-80ms (typical latency I am seeing on reviews of usb audio hw) is a long ass time and can cause a lot of user frustration.

@Wolf480pl @steph @trwnh @plausocks since hearing is slightly more sensitive than sight, let's add a little and say you have ssh with 110ms lag. Usable? Sure. Will you enjoy it? Press x to doubt

@awilfox @Wolf480pl @plausocks @trwnh most professional audio interfaces use usb audio without custom drivers. They have very good latency.

@unfa what kind of audio latency can you get in you setup?

@Wolf480pl I usually work at buffers of 256 or 512, bumping it up to 1024 for heavier projects. I always work in 48 kHz. I didn't want to spend time trying to tune my system for stable operation at smaller buffers, since most of my work is composition, not performance, and even fro peformance I'd never need qoing lower than 128.

@unfa 2 periods per buffer?

That'd be ~10ms at 256,
and ~40ms at 1024...

Looks like 60ms is a lot indeed.
Thanks.

@steph @trwnh @plausocks both, though obviously USB powered is going to be 100x worse.

PCI-e allows DMA, and USB doesn't, so there will by necessity always be more lag on USB audio than a direct card.

@steph @trwnh @awilfox I am very perceptive to these things... I'm one of the weirdos that can honest to god tell the difference between some 320kbps mp3 files and the flac source as well

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