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I get that might not be people's first choice, but I don't understand people gloating over its growing pains. Surely it's incontrovertible that even if it's not your perfect dream solution, it's a massive improvement over the status quo whose success should be celebrated? If only as a gateway to whatever pet project you're rooting for.

@vinnl it's believe only. #signal, #telegram, #whatsapp - all say "we don't sell/analyze your private messages"
And all say "we don't let anybody look what's running at our servers"
All take same permissions on android.
Signal takes calendar in addition, to know what and with whom which place is scheduled, maybe?

none of those shows balls to invite audits

So, opinions and believs, and all useless fights for those, divide people again. "for security"

@hamjb There are independent audits [1], public source code, and public subpoena documents [2] available that show that Signal does not actually have any data other than when your number signed up and when it last connected. That is not a matter of belief; it is proof that Signal is a marked improvement over WhatsApp and Telegram.

[1] eprint.iacr.org/2016/1013.pdf
[2] signal.org/bigbrother/eastern-

@hamjb Sure, not every line of code gets audited all the time. But even then, the fact that it's open source, they let themselves be audited like this, they are supported by a foundation, and that really there's no strong other motivation for them to be working on this cannot really allow for any other conclusion that a world in which Signal is widely used is better than a world in which it is not?

@vinnl are you running same hardware, like 5 years ago, all same software, nothing changed?

we don't need to discuss, it's just logical.
if things change, security needs to be audited.
everything else: believe.

@hamjb I'm not saying we can be 100% certain that Signal doesn't share more data than I mentioned. I'm saying it is extremely likely that it is doing that, and is thereby clearly better than the status quo of which we *know* they do, and thus should be encouraged.

Or let me turn it around: how will Signal having growing pains help anything?

@vinnl Everything fine, if there is own thinking behind, which lead to own decision. If one knows about risks, like server location, cloud act, big business, financial background - who benefits of what. Not running from one illusion into next, due to "others do same".

@vinnl If one uses telegram, signal or even whatsapp, sharing his food pictures or morning greetings, no big difference. Nothing important, it's send to reach out many, without any risk due to it.

Everything serious needs clear minded decision.
I'm against "signal etc. is new saviour". isn't. Depends on money. needs to follows business concepts.

Fine if xyz did know different possibilities and takes decision, most apropriate his situation.
Not because of hype.

@vinnl it isn't related to signal only.
No need, to make specific software/messenger/os whatever, into new religion.

If things change and what changed isn't proofed, it is like ancient times: priest says "you aren't permitted to question".
Nowadays priests and god idols just look different.

@vinnl I know! 🙄 But some people just think like this: "I like X. X is the only good thing in the world. Everything else is equally bad and I hate it." 😂

@vinnl Problems tend to be more noticable when the alternatives are very similar. The diffrent implemtations of messaging apps affect greatly how each messenger can be used. As a result diffrent messengers attract diffrent users.

Lastly each app seperates users due to the absence of interoperability.

@SwindlerOfInsanity Just yesterday I think I used email, Matrix, Signal, Slack, Mastodon, and I'm probably forgetting some. But yes, of course people have some limit at which they're not going to add additional communication apps.

Regardless, Signal being down surely isn't good for getting people to switch to other messengers either.

@vinnl "incontrovertible" is strong word I wouldn't use here. It is another walled garden corporate app and for many people it isn't any better than WhatsApp.

The growing pains happened exactly because of their centralized design they refuse to change by principle.

So yeah, it is a little better but serves them right anyway.
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