@wezm @gsora “Not ready for the desktop” “Some sacrifices”. But they’re never mentioned. 🤔

I’d really like to know what they are, because OpenBSD as a desktop on my x200 is just working perfectly.

@js @wezm that post was rushed out, and I might have missed some logic connections here and there, sorry 😣

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is this: OpenBSD is not a desktop OS *if* you're not willing to learn and abandon some apps which are available on major operating system. But! If you're okay with that, you'll find in OpenBSD a great companion in your everyday computing.

My post wanted to praise OBSD as a desktop OS, not the opposite 😄

@gsora @wezm That is something I can agree with. If what you need is in ports, it’s a great desktop OS! That actually works better with GNOME 3 than any Linux distro I tried.

@js @gsora @wezm unfortunately no Steam/GOG, no Wine (including wrappers like Lutris and PlayOnLinux supporting MS-Office and other 'crucial' Win programs), no Netflix, no Google-Chrome/Vivaldi/Brave-Browser, no Skype/Telegram/Discord/Facebook-App, no Electron-based programs (including IDEs), no easy-to-use type2 hypervisor with VGA/PCIe passthrough.. no KDE5/Cinnamon/Pantheon, no GUI fronted for many utils (e.g. PF, fdisk), is enough to make most people stay on Linux

@sehnsucht @gsora @wezm The first are things you do on Windows anyway. Chromium and Firefox exist (and should also take care of Netflix?). vmm is becoming more and more usable, and very few people do VGA pass-thru anyway. And desktop needs are satisfied by Gnome which is excellently ported to all the OpenBSD-specific parts. Heck, even color profiles work out of the box!

@js @gsora @wezm Spotify/Netflix/Skype on Web and others are DRM-locked, they only work on Google Chrome, Chromium-Widevine, Safari, Firefox with proprietary extensions,none of which is available on *BSD

@sehnsucht @gsora @wezm The vidvine files for Firefox should just work though? Never tried it, though, as I oppose Digital Restrictions Management.

@js @gsora @wezm I oppose too, but AFAIK nobody ever succeeded in what you're talking about.I don't think once suceeded you could redistribute it

@js @gsora @wezm guts please, don't get me wrong, you know I'm mostly an Illumos desktop user, so can understand your point perfectly. But there's more and more non-tech people switching to Linux because of stability, customization, ''security'', no ads, ''lightweight', or simply out of curiosity. And their desktop activity includes gaming: @is are you actually aware of the number of modern commercial games running on Linux? There's just plenty

@sehnsucht @gsora @wezm I played games on Linux for years. I wrote patches to get games running in wine. I edited games in a hex editor w/ disassembler. I tried. I really did. At the end of the day, it’s not worth it. Just run Windows for games or buy a console. I have a separate machines just for games these days. And LAN parties with Linux are just the worst. Everyone is playing while you are recompiling wine with yet another patch.

@js @gsora @wezm guts please, don't get me wrong, you know I'm mostly an Illumos desktop user, so can understand your point perfectly. But there's more and more non-tech people switching to Linux because of stability, customization, ''security'', no ads, ''lightweight', or simply out of curiosity. And their desktop activity includes gaming: @is are you actually aware of the number of modern commercial games running on Linux? There's just plenty

@js @gsora @wezm another thing: while I use stacking WMs, I know of people who wouldn't use anything but KDE5 or Unity, etc..even among IT/CS people of my aquaintance, while there's few actually eager to use Linux on desktop,nobody would ever put *BSD on their laptop. Because they want VBox/9VMware, Wine, games, Netflix, Spotify, Vivaldi, Atom/Sublime/VSCode, they like the comfort of GUI frontends, the Google Drive/Dropbox/What'sApp/Facebook apps which don't force you to open browsers...

@js @gsora @wezm if you look at *BSD desktop userbase, outside the niche community of non techie TrueOS and GhostBSD (met some amateur users), it mostly consists of *nix developers; especially OpenBSD's: I'd bet half is made up by OpenBSD developers, or at least casual committers; the rest is sysadmins, Unix beards, pentesters, security researches, IT students, C programmers, Web devs, rare amateurs. (Open)BSD isn't just suited for the casual desktop user

@sehnsucht @js @gsora @wezm

It's true I am an old UNIX "beard" 🧔 as you put it, but I have always found OpenBSD to be surprisingly usable for a desktop machine. And that's since 2005 or around.

Once you get past the text-only installer, most of the applications the average user need are right here in the packages: brower, office, video, etc. My wife & kids could use it.

My *only* beef with OpenBSD is that it is still limited in the filesystem department (FFS only, no WABPL).

@ParadeGrotesque @js @gsora @wezm and I perfectly agree on this. However I fear we're all stuck in the concept of what 'desktop' used to mean in the late '90s/early '00s : Office suite, PDF reader, Web browser to actually just make researches, editor, mail/IRC/Usenet client, video player, agenda organizer, photo viewer, RSS feeder, classic chatting apps/protos (XMPP, ICQ, MSN), simple games for spare time fun, P2P downloader, CLI tools.

@ParadeGrotesque @js @gsora @wezm However that's not what people mean by 'Desktop PC' (if the concept still exists) any more nowadays. Jyst to tel one, they expect their laptop to be pefectly and automatically connected and integrated with their smartphone, tablet, ipod, Smart TV, TomTom, and they don't expect to have to make any kind of software maintainance on it

@js @gsora @wezm Finally the lack of a forum, a noob-friendly community, and the fact you criticize on things not working/missing, unless you have a PR ready to be merge. You're sort of expected to contribute if you want things to work as you'd expected and it's not somethibg noobs will likely do, especially when patching implies C programming

@js @gsora @wezm oh, and Dropbox, Google Drive, Google Earth and what else. To this you must add the performance loss, the significantly shorter battery life, the poorer hardware support (including practically complete lack of support for Bluetooth, Nvidia GPUs, fingerprint scanners, limited support for webcams, printers, touchscreens, trackpads, suspending and NVMe storage devices), no TRIM, no libinput, the more limited FS support, no FS with snapshots (not even LVM)

@sehnsucht @gsora @wezm Battery lasts longer if anything. Dropbox, Google Earth and Google Drive all work fine on the browser, Nouveau has some support AFAIK?, Bluetooth might be an issue indeed, Touchscreens/Touchpads are well supported (often better than Linux!), NVMe should also work, suspending works (unlike on Linux!), libinput is not required because OpenBSD has its own input system, FS only via fuse indeed.

@js @gsora @wezm Battery lasts similarly on Thinkpads. Again, that's a common mistake from *BSD users: not everybody owns Lenono/Dell laptops. On other brands support is poor, to a disheartening extent. On Linux things are different, I've heard so many stories about people refusing to switch to OpenBSD because of battery life, suspeding/resuming support, wifi support,performance, etc.... I don't mind as I run legacy laptops, but there's people who actually mind

@sehnsucht @js @gsora @wezm
- Suspending works better than most BSD's
- Webcams use the UVC standard, so most of them is plug and play
- Printers are pretty well supported from Gutenprint/CUPS/HPLIP.
- Trackpad support works better than on Linux ina lot of cases.
- TRIM is unneded today, the FW does that for you.
- As the FS, as BSD slices can be partitioned in several more partition tipes than with MBR, backing up the OS and data gets easier.
- Earth works in Iridium fine.

@anthk @js @gsora @wezm Ander I don't agree with you on some points and I don't think you got my statements/position right regarding others, but also don't want to start a debate here which is almost surely going to be improductive; let's just pospone it to another time and to some more comfortable private chat like XMPP or Tox (preferring the former), where I can avoid spamming followers timeline with my stupid rambling,more than I did already :flan_laugh: :flan_smile:

@sehnsucht @js @gsora @wezm

- LibreOffice/Office95.
- Chromium/Firefox exist.
- Telegram works over Pidgin/Bitlbee/Web. So do the rest.
- Better IDE's do exist.
- XFCE and Gnome works just fine, kf5 is WIP.
- Disklabel can be almost as usable as a ncurses program.

@anthk @sehnsucht @js @gsora @wezm I wish my webcam worked on OpenBSD. xhci(4) missing isochronous support or something.

@pertho @sehnsucht @js @gsora @wezm disable usb 3.0 in the uefi/bios, set It as 2.0 compat.

@anthk @pertho @js @gsora @wezm yeah that's a good trick, allows having flash storage support even on DOS, using the Caldera OpenDOS UDBADPI.SYS driver :flan_wink:

@sehnsucht @pertho @js @gsora @wezm sometimes I'd love to have an isolated DOS netbook with VFAT USB media to kill procrastination.

@anthk @pertho I'll untag @js @gsora @wezm from the discussion from this point on (sorry guys)

@sehnsucht @anthk @pertho @js @wezm I'm a little overwhelmed with work and study, but this discussion is extremely interesting. Don't de-@ me, I will follow-up with my thoughts soon :)

@anthk @pertho my workaround to this, especially on UEFI/GPT disks, is having a SD card always inserted (comfortable, not visible) to dual-boot in legacy BIOS mode through the UEFI bootloader; the SD in turn uses SysLinux on a FAT16 partition to dual-boot FreeDOS 1.2 and OpenDOS 7.01 (would like to add REAL/32, but I don't want purchase a license; PC-MOS/386 couldbe.another idea now that it's MIT). Booting in DOS feels just so better than relying on QEMU, Bochs, DOSBox or PCEmu

@anthk @pertho @gsora the problem is Touchpad: forget using CTMOUSE.EXE (CuteMouse) on any Elantech device or any Synaptics device produced after around 2009, as AFAIK internally should be EHCI-connected instead of parallel -connected. Can't speak further as I don't own newer laptops.
The workaround obviously is using a USB mouse through a port acting in OHCI mode (providing again UEFI supports it).

@sehnsucht @anthk @pertho I'm surprised, you use FreeDOS productively rather than just for running games? :)

@js @anthk @pertho It's on FreeDOS that I've started programming on C at an amateurish level; ELVIS is my favourite editor, followed by EDLIN. Corel Word Perfect 6.2 in graphic mode is my favourite and most used Office Suite; I have a laptop from 2000 with FeeeDOS on it, which resides in my parents home bedroom as a secondary laptop. I use DOSLynx and Dillo for browsing, FLMail as IMAP4 client, Arachne as Usenet client, Gopherus as Gopher client, Open Cubic Player to listen mp3

@sehnsucht @js @pertho A pity you can't run subprocesses under Elvis for DOS at all.

@anthk @js @pertho yeah, single-tasking is the real limiting bottleneck

@sehnsucht @js @pertho Sometimes single task is liberating, multitasking + notifications + fast posting social networks (mastodon has brutaldon.online, it has a slow pace) are setting us mad.
I reduced my FVWM pages from 9 to 4, and I feel better.

@anthk @js @pertho so true, I'd say single-tasking is on the other hand also the reason which I use DOS in the first place, as well as more recently the 3310. That's also why I use BSD. In other words, Freedom

@js @anthk @pertho there was a whole year during which I used to run FreeDOS as my main OS. As a medicine student, I have a lot of PDF and docx material to study. I used to read PDF using a batch script relying on pdftops, ghostcript for DOS and lxpic. I converted docx stuff to UST, and displayed it with FreeDOS foxtype, which supports UTF-8. You can fancy out how crazy people thought I was

@anthk @js @pertho unfortunately PDF format was standardized to ISO 32000-(1/2)only in 2008. All modern suites and readers comply to PDF 1.7 or 2.0 standard, but this does not apply to program released before 2008: at 10 different PDF definitions preferred that standard and as a consequence there's no way PDF for DOS or Win3 can read modern PDFs; it's useful only to display manuals shipped with legacy proprietary 16-bit software
prepressure.com/pdf/basics/ver

@anthk @sehnsucht @js @gsora @wezm I can't. No BIOS option for that. If I disable xhci(4) then the devices never show up & USB doesn't work.

@pertho @sehnsucht @js @gsora @wezm man 8 config
Basically:
config -e -o /bsd.new /bsd
disable xhci
quit
At the OpenBSD boot prompt:
b bsd.new

@js @wezm glad to have this misunderstanding sorted out! My English is not great, it didn't help me express my point of view correctly. Lobste.rs seems a little angry at me because of this, too :-)

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