@yogthos Or perhaps "we"¹ want immediate comfort / entertainment more than "we" would like to admit? In this sense, the markets indeed do meet "our" needs…
And also, decades ago, the engineers would be used to develop some pointless weapons and related stuff.

¹ population at large, not just the selected minority of "intellectuals"

@yogthos P.S. With that in mind, it seems pointless to blame "the markets". — Given the social dynamics and attitudes, leading to the formation and sustainability of the markets, a central planning likely wouldn't produce any better outcomes; and the results of the votes seem to be in agreement with the profitability of the businesses.

@amiloradovsky sure, most people don't think big and are perfectly fine with frivolity. I think this is precisely why we need to have a vision as a society. Something that gets people interested in things bigger than themselves.

For example, recent study found that kids in the West want to be Youtubers while kids in China aspire to be astronauts. Collective vision matters.

arstechnica.com/science/2019/0

@yogthos Not that I'm arguing against pointing out the problems — after all, one has to be loud to outscream the other advertisement, which keeps insisting on everything-is-fine — but much of those memes and speeches just seem to be imbalanced: refusing the idea of "wisdom of the crowd" because this "wisdom" doesn't align with my views on the life.

Anyway, I guess the message should be not "market bad", but "stop wasting your resources, people — yes, they're yours too but damn!"

@yogthos P.S. WRT "yours too" — even a person's lifetime doesn't belong to the person entirely — one does always owe it to somebody. Destroying one's health deliberately, for example, is a slap in the face of those people who sacrificed some of their positive experiences just so the person in question could ever exist and make a choices.

@amiloradovsky @yogthos people want it naturally so badly that we have to shove it in their. faces and associate a little stick of burning leaves it with freedom, independence, rebellion, heroism ...etcetera etcetera.

Aw shucks i am on my intellectual high horse again!

PS the leaves that are harder grow, duh who wants competition, duh!

@jasper @yogthos Being on a high horse is fine, at least the horse is happy now, until the hangover…

@amiloradovsky @yogthos Maybe we should worry about ideas running around overconfidently ruining things right now, rather than those which maybe, some day, will.

@amiloradovsky @yogthos so yeah you brushed off the "maybe it's what we really want" and went to the "ohnoes slippery slope" thing, but i have to guess.

The discourse, it is useless, folks.

@amiloradovsky @yogthos at least on online forums.. Also maybe should have used the word discussion instead.

@jasper @yogthos My objection was mostly about correctness; a nitpick, if you will. I just think a lot of the memes are misguided. And misdiagnose the problem.
But anyway, maybe you're right, a discourse/discussion on these topics is really useless and I shouldn't.

@amiloradovsky @yogthos I think the deeper criticism implied by the post is that every kind of push for commodification and paywalling is framed as some kind of natural application and development of "market forces" when that really isn't the case.

@amiloradovsky
For example, let us assume your hypothesis is true, and we do care very deeply for immediate gratification. If that is the case, which good is more desirable for me? One where I have to pay $5 every time I want to feel it, or one where I can input a cheat code, or receive it naturally through playing the game; here I'm talking specifically about the Bejeweled type of game where even for "simple" imputs, the game rewards you with a plethora of overwhelmingly positive feedback.

@trickster @yogthos So your point is that the issue is not a free market economy, but totalitarianism in disguise? — Hell, yeah, that's what all the economists insist is the case!

@amiloradovsky @yogthos How did you manage to get that takeaway?

Also, it's not a "free" market, it's just a market.

@amiloradovsky @yogthos I mean yeah, you got me, I think all markets are basically Stalin. Primitivism is our only way out. Great way of engaging in good faith with an argument.

@trickster @yogthos Honestly, I'm having trouble following the objections to my posts in this thread. But anyway, how I managed to make that interpretation is: you mentioned "market forces" and naturality, and how this isn't full / true story about the processes going on.

@amiloradovsky Right, did you also read my second post after that one, or was the first illustrative enough and in no need of clarification?

@trickster I read, but didn't find it relevant. I can't relate to that mindset personally. That's why I enclosed "we" and "our" in quotes in the first place. See footnote ¹.

@trickster @yogthos AFAIK, "free market" is the (indivisible) term for the abstract concept, to differentiate it from a marketplace. It's like the other technical uses of the word "free", has almost nothing to deal with freedom in the usual sense.

@amiloradovsky Free market can also mean a type of market (which is contrasted against a "regulated market") where tariffs and regulations are kept at a minimum if they're not downright absent. You are correct in using the term, this much is true. Just wanted to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

OCR Output (chars: 342) 

@yogthos I... yeah. I've personally fallen prey to this and often muse about what I could do for society if I wasn't beholden to the almighty dollar.

@zearen I think about that at least once a day, and that makes me so very depressed

Sign in to participate in the conversation
Mastodon

Server run by the main developers of the project 🐘 It is not focused on any particular niche interest - everyone is welcome as long as you follow our code of conduct!