@hhardy01 @Gargron sadly not true when it comes to platforms. Platforms thrive because of their user base.

@Gargron In my dayjob, one of our main products is phone sales service, and the thing that takes up the largest part of our sales calls is almost always simply getting the prospect to answer some variation of "why are you looking for a new solution?" You'd think people looking for a new SaaS - or microblog - would be able to tell you why they're shopping, but nooope.

@Gargron (1/n) And that's just the people who are actively shopping around. People who are open to a new service, but aren't actively looking, the sort who might hear about the product from a blog post about a tangential issue, are even less likely to have a keen idea of what they're looking for in alternatives. And of course, you could just _tell_ them what's better, but then... that's debatable, if you say it, you know, it's your opinion.

@Gargron (2/n) So you're in this weird position where you have to somehow get folk to define (very solidly, in their own head) what a "better microblog" is, and then give them an answer to that problem they've spun up for themselves, all in one breath. It's one of the hardest things about sellings SaaSes, in my opinion, and I don't envy you the task.

@Gargron (3/n) If I were in your shoes, I'd see if you can't get together some testimonials (self-selection bias is going to be a real issue here) and see what common threads there are in their journeys to finding your product, and seeing what common triggers started them on the hunt. Among those with a common trigger, try and develop some other commonalities, and then write to that person; who's just waiting for the right thing to make them go "huh, what _do_ I want in a microblog?"

@Gargron (4/4) I forgot to end my numbering on that one so, uh, in closing, see what paths users take to signing up mastodon, look for shared starting points and then define common traits of people who start on there, and pretend you're writing content to get that fictional person, who's just about to start down the path to defining "better microblog"

@emsenn This may be true.

@Gargron @emsenn for most people a social network is "better" when their friends are there. For microblogs, maybe replace "friends" with "celebs"
(Statement based on personal experience, not social research).

Users are the most important commodity for a platform.

@emsenn @Gargron It seems like this is a case of making a qualitative judgement in hindsight: “people switched from X to Y because its core experience is 10x better” but in my humble opinion I feel that it all comes down to intangible factors, that are hard to control. The best we can do as a community is keep on promoting the stuff until the stars align. And who knows, perhaps the alignment is not that far away into the future..

@enkiv2 Yo, I don't give a shit if people switch to Pleroma. The only people who switch to Pleroma are people who are already sold on the idea of federation, which means I've done my job with them. I'm talking about Twitter. If there is something I am talking about and you have to ask, "is it Pleroma or Twitter", I can assure you it's never Pleroma.

@InspectorCaracal Yes, but it's like when the SV crowd talks about the 10x developer or whatever. It's unquantifiable, but at the same time you get an idea of what is meant. That being said you're right, this may not be applicable to Mastodon. For all we know, people would use literal garbage as long as enough famous people were also using it.

@Gargron @InspectorCaracal the immediate reason people don't try mastodon in my experience is entirely the UI is incredibly intimidating (its based on something intended for power users).
(the reason they don't stay when i do invite them is because 'their friends aren't here' which is pretty nebulous to me)

@oct2pus @InspectorCaracal 😔 jailed for power user crimes

@Gargron @InspectorCaracal i know this is a big commitment but i really do recommend a new and/or alternative UI at some point.

@oct2pus @Gargron @InspectorCaracal I strongly agree. The UI of mastodon is extremely intimidating.

@hinterwaeldler
Fourth'd - everybody I've managed to coax into using Mastodon disliked the Tweetdeck UI and, though neither them converted to active users so far, the two people I further coaxed into installing Mastalab greatly preferred the 1-column mobile UI, as do I. There's nothing wrong with the Tweetdeck UI for those who use and like it, but new users who never used Tweetdeck are like "wut."
@oct2pus @Gargron @InspectorCaracal

@oct2pus @Gargron what that really means is "my friends are still talking about stuff on twitter and I don't want to be left out"

@InspectorCaracal i mean i just really don't think that way personally and i don't really get the argument...you can continue using both websites at once its not like you can commit only to one social media site.

i just made new friends and called it a day

@oct2pus @InspectorCaracal For the browser of the current digital native it seems to be incredible difficult to juggle more than three cookies at once.

@oct2pus interesting statement. Indeed the tweetdeck-alike UI isn't as good as it could be.

@Gargron (2/2) Mastodon has a much steeper learning curve than other contemporary social media sites, which presents a large obstacle to switching. The only ways to get people past that obstacle are to give them sufficient motivation to keep going *before* they really get the core user experience - and the core user experience is what the "10x better" is about.

I don't think most people who could switch are getting sufficient motivation.

@InspectorCaracal Does Mastodon actually have a steeper learning curve than Snapchat though? That shit opaque af

@Gargron Yeah, it does. Snapchat, you pick up, you make an account, you take pictures, you add people. Sure, a lot of the features are weird and unintuitive but that just means most people wouldn't use all the features when they get started.

Mastodon already starts off at a disadvantage because you have to figure out how the system works before you even sign up, and since that's an inherent part of the fediverse, it needs to be done Extra Well.

@Gargron I have yet to figure out what that Extra Well would actually *be*, though, or I'd have given suggestions ages ago. 😓

@InspectorCaracal I guess one of the most important things we can do is try and make the best of the user sign-ups we do get. Let's consider the server selection to be our Great Filter. Most people who join say that content discovery is too difficult. What can be done for this?

Trends, follow recommendations, popular content leaderboards. There's uhhh opposition to all of those in the community. Idk what to do.

@Gargron What I think could be valuable is finding out what those people who are saying content discovery is too difficult are expecting the content discovery to actually be like. What kind of content are they expecting to discover, and how do they want to be seeing it?

@InspectorCaracal Not gonna lie they ask for things like trending hashtags lmao

@Gargron I'm not surprised. >.>

The thing is, a lot of people ask for features because they're used to seeing it, not because it's a valuable addition, or because they haven't thought about what they actually are getting out of it. So in the case of trending hashtags, what do you get out of it? You see what people are talking about right then.

The thing is, on Mastodon, that's what looking at the local and federated timelines is for... ooooh, I had a thought

@InspectorCaracal The signal to noise ratio on the firehose timelines has become too low for them to actually be able to tell what people are currently talking about.

@Gargron I'm trying to think if showing, say, the 10 most recently used unique hashtags in a given timeline column, regardless of frequency, would get booed for the same reasons as trending hashtags. I think it would avoid most of the complaints, but still give people a quick way to see what other people are talking about - which is the function that trending hashtags serve.

@InspectorCaracal Recently I was thinking how I could count when someone gets a follow from a recent account, and then add a list of most-followed-by-new-people accounts to the last screen of the onboarding screen.

Another thing that would be useful to me personally, count interactions with people you are not following, and then get recommendations to follow them, because I legit forget even if I boost someone a lot.

@Gargron I fear this has the effect of amplifying 'popularity', and replicate the shitty birdsite social dynamics related to that... (each user should have the possibility to custom hide counts of following/followers to the whole fediverse imo, not a popular feature perhaps but a long-sighted one) @InspectorCaracal

@bob @charlyblack @InspectorCaracal @gargron I also have the impression that content discovery is overrated (it will only help you find popular content) whereas the total tine spent on the platform is what actually drives engagement.

@steko @bob @charlyblack @InspectorCaracal @Gargron chasing the instant gratification of ‘popular’ is addictive and destructive. It’s what made the birdsite a toxic inhabitable place, an endless contest of who shouts the loudest. Actual engagement is slower, not addictive and requires work. As mastodon is not at mercy of VC, it can afford the luxury of not pursuing popular

@Gargron

Common thread in all of this: it's the cool people and cool stuff they post which makes Mastodon sticky. Not celebs, but people with common interests that post a high density of amazing stuff.

I came to Mastodon as a very experienced social media user and started following breadcrumb trails from hashtags and the local timeline, and quickly found lots of cool people to follow. Most users (even tech savvy ones) seem not motivated enough to do this. (cont)

@Gargron

I'm thinking as I type here, and as an aside (and without having kept abreast of developments), I really wish the best to the forking folks, because I suspect there's a bit of a schism in the community: a big chunk of folks like, use, and want high discoverability, and a big chunk of folks absolutely do not want it, and I suspect in the long run this may need to be solved either by a fork or by configurable features. With that out of the way... (cont)

@Gargron

(cont) I don't agree with the seemingly reactionary stance against nearly every discoverability feature idea that's tossed around, nor do I agree that algorithms are never useful in this context and that all discovery must be 100.0% organic. IMO that's just not realistic. Mastodon is a firehose, and people have limited time.

What about a happy medium with unobtrusive algorithmic onboarding & suggestions which tail off over time as a new user's engagement grows? (cont)

@deutrino @Gargron Sounds kinda like my approach with recommendations.

When people first start using Odysseus I give them a curated set of links. It's less personalized but all the more personal.

But as they use Odysseus more it gets more personalized in easy-to-understand ways. Though I do everything I can to move the focus off of these, and that's where all the challenge of implementing them comes from.

@alcinnz There is certainly something to be said for human curated lists. I like to listen to certain internet radio stations because the DJs and music directors may not perfectly align with my taste, but they almost always produce a more interesting mix than an algorithm.
@Gargron

@deutrino @Gargron And if those people like my recommendations, I've got the exact some thing available online. (besides this is useful for testing)

It's currently at https://alcinnz.github.com/Odysseus-recommendations/

@Gargron

I go back to the "cool people with similar interests" sticky factor. How can we make finding those people easy for noobs?

Principle: can we get the user to specify some interests during onboarding, then make it more likely that content from users with similar interests will be displayed to them at first? (cont)