Please remember that Mastodon doesn't have a marketing team or budget. Whatever media coverage Mastodon gets is from inbound interest from journalists. The growth of the platform has been predominantly through word of mouth. If you want the fediverse to grow, tell your friends.
@Gargron Also helps to be welcoming and helpful to new users. Mastodon has a reputation for really rancid vibes/scolding.
@ryanroberts @Gargron last time I tried mastodon about a year or so ago, established users LOVED to tell new users they were doing it wrong. Plus the feeds were full of posts giving the impression that new users were not welcome.
That's cause people love to brag and show off in front of others.
It's also the result of people overselling the advantages of Mastodon.
As such, it's best to clarify upfront that decentralization limits the technical options any platform can develop in exchange for the empowerment of consumers and communities.
In fact, it's best to focus growth outside of the US where culture doesn't care that much about privacy, oligopolies, consumer rights, hate speech, etc.
@wrack @ryanroberts @Gargron I guess as a US user I should read that comment to mean I am not welcome here, ha
Where did I imply that? If you're already so hostile, it may be you who's overstating Mastodon's bad reputation.
The US market simply doesn't value what decentralized platforms build on as much so why not shift one's focus on other nations and languages.
@wrack @Gargron @ryanroberts my observation is that Mastodon is full of people committed to Mastodon/Fediverse as a project. They tend to look down on more casual users without the kind of ideological motivation to the Fediverse project.
Sure, I've seen that happen as well, but I can't quantify this to say "there's a reputation".
On the other hand, I've seen a lot of casual users as well as news media treat fediverse platforms the same as for-profit social media, so they complain in a tone as if anyone owes them something.
That obviously annoys established users.
@Gargron @wrack @ryanroberts a user that’s been driven away or put off won’t bother explaining why to the people that drove them away…but will relay their experience to potential users.
That said maybe the growth of the user base beyond the initial True Believers has made things better lately.
So happy/lucky not to have run into them!
#IMuteFreely
@Gargron I would love it to grow, and I think the Fediverse is a very important ecosystem.
But to achieve that, Mastodon also needs to grow up with much better user safety tools.
Especially things that some other platforms have, such as controlling who can reply or answer.
I realise that's not necessarily that easy to implement, but I think that without it, a lot of people will no longer find this a safe (and fun) enough place.
@ilijastuden @Gargron Your (any mine) experience isn't everyone else's.
Listening how other people experience things here is mega important if you don't want to push people away.
@derickr @ilijastuden @Gargron I am curious because I’ve watched this happen a few times - the person being harassed doesn’t want to be harassed and doesn’t feel like they need to be taking actions to prevent it. For a person like this, who by design, is trying to establish a community, is it likely that they would be satisfied with a feature to restrict who can reply, or would we continue to see the same situation play out even with that feature in place?
@jerry
The requested feature would absolutely prevent the harassment happening on her posts. Currently the only way she can stop these people having a mocking women party there is by restricting visibilty to followers only- which isn't at all what I want her to have to do. No-one would be able to boost her positivity into my feed and I would never find her
1/2
@jerry
Ironically one group of people known to use the feature that limits post visibility to followers only is racists.
They can post on a black person's timeline to coordinate attacks on them. Their followers can see it. The people being attacked can't. And even when alerted all they can do to control it is delete the post. All they can do to prevent it is post to followers only
Still wonder why we don't see many black people here?
2/2
@RedRobyn
I thought if you mentioned someone in a follower-only post that saw it?
@jerry @derickr @ilijastuden @Gargron
@ilijastuden
One of the really important parts here is how the only moderation tool that's available to her to stop the harassment is to delete her entire post. Blocking the harassers does not stop them being able to interact with each other on replies on her post. And been unable to limit replies to followers makes alt accounts for harassers even more effective here.
@RedRobyn @ilijastuden @derickr @Gargron
"Only"? What about Block&Report? In my experience moderators have been quite quick and responsive dealing with overt violations of server rules, and ready to defederate from instances that don't enforce those rules. But the mods can't do shit if you don't report.
@artemesia
She quite specifically says blocking them does not stop them continuing to interact with each other on the thread. It only stops her seeing it
I understand that even if they can no longer see her posts they are still there, still seeing everyone else's and still visible to others. It's also potentially draining whack-a-mole work.
Reporting assumes that the harassers host admins give a shit. Anecdotally if they don't it can also lead to .targeting
@RedRobyn @ilijastuden @derickr @Gargron
You know that admins on your own instance can block or limit users on other hosts, and defederating from the offending instance will be discussed? Perhaps my experience with mods has been more positive than yours.
@artemesia
I have a small and relatively inoffensive account. But I listen to and believe victims of harassment. I think it's interesting that the most pushback I get is when I try to amplify their voices.
The short answer is no, not everyone gets a good response from their own admins, and no "just move then" is not helpful advice.
@RedRobyn @ilijastuden @derickr @Gargron
On an individual basis one can domain block the instance hosting the harrassers.
Um, if you're being let down by your own instance's admins, "just move" is the correct response, and only response. Enough people walk those admins might see the light.
@artemesia
I am not being let down by my own instances admin.
I am being let down by fediverse developers' refusal to make a tool that is requested by victims of harassment, vis the ability to limit replies to followers only. When we ignore such requests and instead lecture people that it is their fault , or their admins fault, for not using the moderation tools they have told us are inadequate, we are effectively victim blaming.
@RedRobyn @ilijastuden @derickr @Gargron
Without seeing the behavior you're referencing, it is impossible to analyze what would fix it. But I do take exception to your strawman assertion that there is no way for a user to handle shitposting replies save deleting their own post. Next time this happens, try calling out the shitposting in your own post, using the fediblock hashtag.
Meanwhile, you can set your own profile to automatically post "visible to followers only", or do that on an individual post basis. https://nerdschalk.com/make-mastodon-account-private/
But I don't think you're arguing in good faith here, when you jump to assert victim blamind, and your back to back replies include:
"The short answer is no, not everyone gets a good response from their own admins"
"I am not being let down by my own instances admin."
I'm going to mute this thread now.
@artemesia
Further: the enough people walking? They ain't moving instances. They are moving to bluesky. Which I think is where this thread came in.
And the devs aren't seeing the light. They are seeing people enabling them by explaining the tools are fine.
And I believe we are worse off because this place is qwhite white. One of the glorious things about bipoc Twitter was being able to get an education on decolonising myself, just by shutting up and listening.
I'm adding that tool to my block list but I just wanted to say your writing is spot on and that the conversation between the two of you is a _perfect_ replica of victims of harassment and the Fedi HOA types who demand receipts.
The only way he could have made it closer? Suggesting a simple word filter. That's always the next out of touch patch to the structural problem.
@Homebrewandhacking
Interesting how they announced a mute along with bad faith allegations when I added my general comments on racist outcomes. Also the example I was discussing moderation tools in relation to? Linked in the fourth post on the thread they jumped into.
Deleting your own post so all the comments you don't like go away is called a dirty delete elsewhere. Yet here we can't do a simple honest "this one's just for my mates to chat about" it's all we can do. So the trolls win.
Eh. I exclude them from civilised conversation. Sucks to be them.
@Homebrewandhacking
Yeah. Unfortunately the combination of some really gross targeted harassment* by trolls and the HOA "please CW your lived trauma, I find it upsetting" means people who should have been welcome here were driven away. And we are the poorer for it
*Not putting receipts here, but might be able to point you to some if you need. Suffice to say it uses existing features to evade public scrutiny, so we don't see the whack-a-mole targeted users and their admins do to try stop it.
Nah, you're OK. I don't need to see harassment proven to me. I trust my fellow adults to identify it.
@artemesia @RedRobyn @ilijastuden @derickr @gargron If the offending party is not on an instance with willing moderators, then all that does is hide their posts from you.
@derickr @ilijastuden @Gargron Unsafe spaces in social media apps run by billionaires are why millions of us left. Let's not make the same mistakes here.
@derickr @Gargron #mastodon is not the fediverse. No ecosystem is healthy with 75% concentration in one platform.
As for what has been termed reply-gating, it has recently been developed as a feature in #pixelfed
https://mastodon.social/@pixelfed/112880378856733290
@derickr @Gargron I just find the basic "block' very empowering and believe it is the second most important tool after "follow". People who complain about negative experiences seem to be badly under using it or mistaking it with "mute".
"Block" and individual responsibility for using it might even be enough moderation, but maybe my experience has been too positive to feel the need for an outside moderator, or maybe my mod does such a good job that I don't see his influence.
@Asbestos @Urban_Hermit @derickr @Gargron @roknrol
Block is a great tool, i think everyone should use it often, but expecting people to avoid targeted harassment with it is going to cause a terrible experience for people that get targeted harassment.
@Urban_Hermit @derickr @Gargron @roknrol
Yes, for sure. Also often there is condescending victim blaming implied in it to. ( but not in this thread)
@Asbestos @Urban_Hermit @derickr @Gargron @roknrol
People heaping on abuse will always be glad to toss _that_ little extra in for free
@Gargron That’s one side of the deal. The other is to listen to the needs of the full diversity of users. If you want us all to be your marketing team, you need to accept everyone on your product team too.
@Gargron I have written about this, in German though.
we try so hard.
The book with a long interview https://digitalcourage.social/@sl007/111105601876900334
The free Talk from Public Spaces
https://digitalcourage.social/@sl007/112597533470606692 w @bjoernsta where the NL mastodon team spoke too.
Deeply sorry that journalism has become a cosy copy bubble.
Deerply sorry that our colleagues are that supid ignorant.
@Gargron
addendum, it seems that
@bjoernsta got the quicker keyboard finger. That doesn't say anything about camera reaction :)
@Gargron
I'm more a "quality over quantity" guy, but if you want more people to come over here, you need to provide the tools that folks have been asking for for years. Like quote posts, and banning racist accounts. So many people come here and give up because of the toxicity, and they are the ones who you would have wanted, because they post interesting, fun content.
@Okanogen @Gargron Yep. These are the things that, if not addressed, will burn all the diversity and goodness out of the ecosystem. I know centralisation is out of the question, but some facility for meta-banning and blocking is needed, and a way for the "good" instances to firewall the nazi randos by default.
@phil_stevens @Gargron
I've been "warned" by some that they are considering mass-blocking or defederating from mastodon.social.becsuse of these issues, especially spam, bot, and abusive new accounts. Who can that possibly help?
@Gargron Are you planning to have a marketing team in the future, given enough budget, or it's a deliberate decision?