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I know that Twitter is where your friends are and you’ve spent 15 years building your social graph on that service.

But is that a good reason to aid and abet the spread of Russian propaganda?

Even if you believe Russia is a far off concern, this isn’t true—it’s patently obvious that Russia is influencing domestic Fascism as well.

The likes of Candace Owens don’t appear in a vacuum. They are clearly influenced by the Kremlin.

“But I’m mocking all the Fascism on Twitter, or blocking it whenever I see it!”

Doesn’t matter. Elon Musk controls the algorithm. As we’ve already seen, he dictates what is seen and unseen.

Anyone who speaks out against his agenda can find themselves talking to a proverbial wall. Or at least brought out as a punching bag when the need arises.

And your blocks don’t matter if Elon really wants to force Twitter to see something.

Your continued presence on Twitter helps no one.

I also understand—and empathize—that people often have no choice and must use Twitter.

If the choice is between making rent and eviction, I get it.

But that’s not everyone. If you’re privileged enough to leave Twitter, it’s your duty to log off forever.

That’s how you can thwart the spread of Fascism.

At a certain point, there should be a social cost to continuing to use Twitter.

Sooner or later, Twitter should be considered no better than Gab, Truth Social, and 4chan.

We need to start referring to Twitter as “the world’s largest Fascist propaganda farm”.

What are you doing participating on the world’s largest Fascist propaganda farm?

@axeshun @atomicpoet Jeez--the Billionaires will do anything to avoid paying taxes, won’t they? Oh and cover each other’s assets! #RepublicansAreWrong

@KansasGrant If people are still on Twitter, they are helping the cause of Fascism.

@atomicpoet I respect your opinion, but it is only that.

@KansasGrant Again, is it only my opinion? See also: https://weaponizedspaces.substack.com/p/kremlin-twitter-accounts-get-a-boost

@atomicpoet My.opinon differs about the "supporting" part. I provided a rationale for why being on Twitter might be a way to actually fight fascism - which you did not refute.

As I'm sure you're aware, many people on Twitter believe that they should "stay and fight" rather than "cede the global public square to the fascists."

I don't personally hold that view but I think it's just as defensible as yours that by staying on Twitter, one is supporting fascism.

As I stated previously, your argument oversimplifies a complex issue. In my opinion.

@KansasGrant I've literally addressed that elsewhere in the thread: https://mastodon.social/@atomicpoet/110204363024306527

@atomicpoet @KansasGrant
I agree that providing the content that helps to prop up a platform that is focused on amplifying racism, conspiracy theories, and the policies of the 1% is a bad idea, but it's not up to me to decide for those that are still on that foul site.

It's quite impossible to "prove" either side of the argument, but I believe that inertia keeps them on there more than they will admit to.

@GreenFire @KansasGrant This isn't just about amplifying racism, conspiracy theories, and the 1%.

It's about literally helping the cause of Fascism. https://mastodon.social/@atomicpoet/110204311456436393

@atomicpoet @GreenFire @KansasGrant

Sorry, I'll insist that you're literally part of the problem here.

Right now, there's a *really* heavy and important debate among black folks on the value of people like Justin Pearson; a lot of young (IMHO uneducated) black folks think he's corny and a faker, older people like myself understand he's a part of an important tradition. This talk is huge, heavy, far reaching.

and it ain't happening here. It's on twitter.

Broaden your view.

@jrm4 @GreenFire @KansasGrant There’s no reason that conversation should happen solely on Twitter.

If it’s only happening on Twitter, that’s a problem because that conversation should also be happening elsewhere.

@atomicpoet @jrm4 @GreenFire @KansasGrant
Is it just me or is this convo sort of ... irrelevant? At least from my experience, active social media presence has pretty sketchy results. It's fun and all to slide into convos, but it's somewhat questionable if it's conductive to a permanent political force for good. And "the app" didn't create any kind of political regime on it's own, tech doesn't do that (being owned by a man-child and seeking the bottom line doesn't help tho).

@chmps @atomicpoet @GreenFire @KansasGrant

Couldn't possibly disagree with this more.

At least in the US, I'd nearly 100% credit social media for e.g. "the public and collective knowledge of the misbehavior of some white people to the point that 'Karen' became a convenient shorthand" to social media, to say nothing of organzing/discussing e.g. BLM.

@jrm4 @atomicpoet @GreenFire @KansasGrant
Sure. I'm not saying no effects are there, but afaik BLM did a lot more with social media than angryposting (going through hastags and connecting people locally on the basis of that as one example). I'm saying perhaps it is more about what is done with the particular tech. Like, I briefly checked the anarchospace on Mastodon and there wasn't a single event mentioned, tho I'm sure there'd be some to share (and would get deleted under Zuck). At least I know over the gaybear side, some people do that. Or I've grown too cynical and don't feel comfortable calling it organizing unless I see resources & work flowing and calls to action.

@chmps @jrm4 @atomicpoet @GreenFire @KansasGrant it’s what you make of it. Some people monetize it. Some people make friends. Some people use it for their causes. And you are correct that 1 small account is generally irrelevant. But just like voting, it is about principles and large numbers of people doing the same to where it can be relevant.

@skotchygut @atomicpoet @jrm4 @GreenFire Understood. That's why I've been trying to develop a presence on Mastodon for the past five months.

Regardless, I'll be glad to abandon Twitter complete if and when that becomes necessary for me. Until then, I'll continue to use it at the level it meets my needs.

Personally, I see this as a pragmatic issue, not as any great battle of Good versus Evil. I never saw that my being on Twitter since 2016 had any noticeable effect, nor would my abandoning it now.

@KansasGrant @skotchygut @jrm4 @GreenFire Your choices matter.

@atomicpoet @KansasGrant @skotchygut @jrm4
Would you still stay on Twitter if the #Resistors with big followings left?

I like the argument that AtomicPoet makes that we shouldn't have our #PublicSquare on a privately owned platform, but to me I view ELoon as part and parcel of an existential threat to democracy so I want people to leave his platform in order to help neuter his power some.

@GreenFire @atomicpoet @KansasGrant @skotchygut @jrm4 he controls who sees your stuff and what you can post. You have no voice there. “Resistance “ is an illusion. I.e https://mastodon.social/@dangillmor/110201028870327621

@edgeoforever @atomicpoet @KansasGrant @skotchygut @jrm4
They stay over there to share important information, but their reach has decreased so much that it just doesn't seem to make sense to stay over there and continue to prop up that foul site. @Julia_Davis_share

@skotchygut @atomicpoet @edgeoforever @GreenFire @KansasGrant

That's silly. Of course I am. I might get suspended, but that doesn't mean I'm not free to speak as I like.

@jrm4 @atomicpoet @KansasGrant @skotchygut
I don't think that we were discussing your experience on that foul site so much as what harm it can cause for people to stay on the site of an anti-democratic organization trying to use that platform to help undermine democracy.

I know that I'm just stating my opinion that continuing to post on Twitter is similar to reporters that provided content to The Dearborn Independent.

@jrm4 @GreenFire @atomicpoet @KansasGrant

still continues to have at least some meaningful back-and-forth conversation between users.

Can you help me understand the lower bounds on this condition? If there was only one other person in the entire network along with you doing this, would you still feel the same way?

I ask for this clarification because there will always be at least some value there. No one is disputing this. Our concerns focus upon the means by which our networks are managed. We seek to empower community members to build networks they themselves can hold self-determination over.

I fail to understand how a community can hold any self-determination over the direction and management decisions made at X Corp., a wholly-owned subsidiary of X Holdings Corp., which is itself owned by Musk.

@sigrithur @atomicpoet @GreenFire @KansasGrant

did you really type this out, and nod to yourself like "yeah this is deep"

@skotchygut @atomicpoet I don't actually hold that position myself. But I believe it's defensible, as follows:

- Like it or not, Twitter is the de factor "global public square". Mastodon may eventually get there but it's currently far from it.
- Although Musk has elevated fascist voices, he has not explicitly silenced anti-fascists: we can still make our voices there heard. (Not so if anti-fascists were explicitly silenced.)
- Like most things in life, there are plusses and minuses. The good of "Stay and fight" can reasonably be deemed to outweigh the harm of sharing the global public square with fascists.
- Musk and/or his investors have a profit motive to keep Twitter viable as a business. Therefore, there is a constraint on his apparently pro-fascist management of the platform.

@KansasGrant @skotchygut Could have fooled me about his profit motive. Elon Musk made his dog the CEO, changed Twitter’s office sign to “Titter”, and auto-responds to press inquiries with .

Either he’s exceptionally bad at making Twitter profitable, or he’s not motivated by it at all.

@atomicpoet @skotchygut I've considered both possibilities myself over the last several months, and have concluded that both are plausible, and that we have no way to know at this point which is correct.

That said, my own hunch is that it's some combination of the two.

@quietmarc @KansasGrant @atomicpoet Except it’s been more like “time to keel over and flail in the mud”

@jgordon @KansasGrant @atomicpoet Yeah, but.....you have to remember that fascists don't have the same goals as non-fascists? My goals on twitter were to have a good time, communicate with others, build a community. Twitter *definitely* seems like it's "flailing in the mud" from my perspective.

But the fascists, overall, don't give a fuck about my goal, and right now - despite their infighting and griping - twitter is working *better* for them. It's working *great* for authoritarian regimes, misinformation campaigns, people bent on subverting democracies.

To many (not all) vulnerable people who relied on twitter for mutual aid, who are targets of hate campaigns and so on....twitter is actually a lion's den.

I'm agnostic on whether or not people should leave twitter. My gut says it's a good idea to at the very least invest in building community on other platforms (it's why I'm here), but I'm extremely, EXTREMELY skeptical of the idea that twitter ever was a "public square" (if it was, it's in the same way as a mall was a "public square" - the illusion of a "public", but with security, rules that kept out poor and unhoused people, everything costs money to do, some folks have to *work* there for pay and don't have much say in their working conditions).

And, I mean, most fascists (and fascist movements) look funny, out-of-touch, and incompetent.....until they aren't. This isn't saying fascists are 4-D chess players, only that what fascism *wants* and *does* is so different from what healthy societies want and do, we can under-estimate the threat.

@Lassielmr @KansasGrant I believe Russia is now full-on Fascist, and they’re exporting their ideology.

@cenobyte @KansasGrant What kind of friends refuse to talk to you through email, chat, phone call—or virtually anywhere else but Twitter?

@atomicpoet @KansasGrant I wouldn't say they refuse.Feels more like they just haven't thought of alternatives.

@cenobyte @KansasGrant I mean, if they are your friends, they’d at least find some other means to communicate with you.

They don’t necessarily have to come here to the Fediverse. But they won’t even send you a text message or meet with you on Zoom?

@atomicpoet @KansasGrant Maybe they would. Don't know, never asked. That said, I can't make them do something, and I'm not going to impose myself on them. I'll of course educate them about mastodon and the fediverse, but I can't force them to come here and I'm not going to make our friendship dependent on that.