"gendered responses to employees’ expressions of passion—one of the most commonly used criteria used in evaluating potential—both penalize women and advantage men in high-potential selection processes"
https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/orsc.2023.18018
These researchers have a decent write-up in HBR as well: https://hbr.org/2024/12/research-why-passionate-men-succeed-even-when-theyre-mediocre
@grimalkina
that Evel-Knievel-on-a-trike image is pretty great for
"passionate (and unexceptional) men"
@trochee there's a certain can't stop won't stop quality in the rising generations of social scientists that is just like...."what if we called this effect boosting mediocre because it is"
Passion Penalizes Women and Advantages (Unexceptional) Men in High-Potential Designationsdaaaaamn that title is awesome
but also, now I'm re-thinking all those "Are you passionate about X?" job postings as being implicity biased (whereas before I just thought they were corporate garbage; I mean, I imagine a lot more people are willing to work on/with Jira than are passionate about it).
@aud Jachimowicz and co-authors have been turning out some really interesting stuff about the downsides of "passion" and how we perceive it, I've been enjoying following this!
@grimalkina@mastodon.social This is definitely an interesting read, and giving me a sort of chance to go back and think about my own pre and post transition interviews.
I'm sure you're well aware of the mental balancing act one has to perform: "is this just 'the job market', this specific employer, or sexism?"; it's one I've had to do multiple times while also knowing, "hey, I think I'm being treated differently than I was before."
I have, perhaps unwisely, allowed my passion to show as it had been such a good thing, previously. But it certainly seems that it forces a certain level of "ice queen bitch" under some circumstances, doesn't it...
I feel like by personality/and my own choices I AM a really passionate person and love this about myself, connects to a lot of joy, but wow is it complicated
@grimalkina@mastodon.social RIGHT?! Like I applied to some positions where I felt like my genuine drive and passion for opening up access and helping to make things equitable (due to personal experience! stories that I conveyed when they asked!) would have been good, but they seemed to be met with... indifference, at best. Neither of them resulted in a job offer or anywhere close to it.
Well, another variable for the mental math, I guess. Blehhhhh.
so what's the better strategy then? just being like "i don't really care about this shit, but i'm good at it"?
that would be true for most tech jobs but i'm sick of that and actually trying to find opportunities that i'm passionate about 
gotta love when jobs pages say stuff like "we're actively trying to make our team more diverse. plz apply if you're part of a disadvantaged/underrepresented population" and then it's immediately clear that they aren't trying and that why their team is just a bunch of white guys
@lina@neuromatch.social @grimalkina@mastodon.social I have no idea and I wish I did 
I suspect there's a little bit of "damned if you do damned if you don't".
ugh. well, so, the potential corollary ("women who are seen as unpassionate, unemotional, unfeeling beings are perceived as high potential") isn't addressed here as far as I can see, and I wouldn't pretend to know whether it's been addressed previously. But I do wonder if that's perceived less negatively than 'passion'? I don't know whether "passion" vs. "coldly logical" are gendered 100% of the time and whether that's a good or bad thing in this context?
more funding for psychologists!
lol, yeah more data will probably show that women are just penalized for being women every time and passion isn't the fix :P
@lina@neuromatch.social @grimalkina@mastodon.social it's so frustrating to not know the fucking gender 'metagame' (to borrow a phrase). ugghhhhhhh.
shit, it's frustrating to have to play it period blehhhh.
@lina @aud I wish I knew too 
. I can give some thoughts as a scientist who studies such things, & then maybe different thoughts as a person who also struggles with this
Scientist hat on: it's important to know that big group differences and probabilities aren't destiny, and these effects are constantly changing. Being mindful of these effects means I really lean into the "metrics" side of my accomplishments...
@lina @aud ... And use those "objective" measures to push against emotional evaluation. I also learned to challenge feedback that was unduly penalizing my affect by asking for concrete and agreed on examples. Another thing from science is that creating "we're alike" moments can help us overcome these biased evaluations. It's unfair, but finding quick ways to affirm other, shared identities across gender lines can be really helpful
@lina @aud now just my "person who struggles with this" hat on, I decided a long time ago that I would understand these systemic penalties so that I could better understand my experiences and try to help others and not replicate them myself, but also that I couldn't go down the soul destroying path of like, "not showing passion" or whatever thing I felt was held against me. This isn't really advice just experience sharing 
. Ultimately in my career I've found it worth it for me...
@lina @aud ... Because there's so much good work we can do and meaningful relationships we can have in this world that we'll never access unless we're our authentic selves. And ultimately I think the cost of this choice (which obviously is not available to everyone every time) happens, but it's also meant I've found more people who've done the work to get past such patterns and truly see my work. It isn't fair but also...I just couldn't live in "performance" mode trying to dodge the world's bias
As someone raised in a certain kind of southern womanhood I can give you the answer from that perspective but it also sucks.
Your passion is weird and off-putting because it is excluding the guy. If you are excited about his passion and want that to happen for him that is wonderful because then you understand your role on the team and are excited by it.
Basically you can be excited about helping men with power do things all day long.
Sorry.
@Vrimj@mastodon.sandwich.net @lina@neuromatch.social @grimalkina@mastodon.social intense vomiting
sooooo I've definitely followed the type of route grimalkina laid out (I can't not be passionate) but the cynical approach would therefore be, "I am passionate about helping the team succeed using the tools Jira gives us", in the cursed "are you passionate about jira" example?
@Vrimj@mastodon.sandwich.net @lina@neuromatch.social @grimalkina@mastodon.social or maybe even that's too much. uggghhhh the gender olympics suck.
More Jira is a tool let me tell you about how I used it to solve this complicated social problem in a way that made things easy for this important man and that is what I really find satisfying, I am willing to use whatever tools get me to the point where I can make the vision happen for my leadership.
(You can use leadership too, men will always read leadership as men in my experience no matter the actual leadership of the team involved)
@Vrimj@mastodon.sandwich.net @lina@neuromatch.social @grimalkina@mastodon.social I know we're just using jira as a joke example but somehow this conversation is making me hate it even more.
