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@yogthos it's important to understand that "system" here actually means "people". Normal, well-meaning people around and including us rewarding aggressive behavior for "winning". We like winners.

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@yogthos I'm… not sure it has anything to do with capitalism itself. Sounds more like human nature to me. Feudal societies were quite rich in psychopathic lords and rulers as far as I know.

Regardless, fostering social institutions is the only way to fight that. As in, societies where psycho- and sociopaths are being limited should theoretically win in the long wrong. But it should be a conscious effort to maintain this, it won't happen by itself.

@isagalaev @yogthos

1) Capitalism doesn't have to be the first system to select for antisocial behavior in order to be a system that selects for antisocial behavior.
2) Just because something has been done for ages, and some people might call it "natural" and give it a shine of cosmic justice, doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved.

But you agree with point (2) already. The question is, what kind of system *can* we design that rewards pro-social behavior and scaled to billions of people one way or another? We've tried a couple that didn't work out so well.
@isagalaev @yogthos It's just soft capitalism and we've tried it for a century. We still select for jerks.

@yogthos @clacke "all the employees have a voice regarding how the business is run, then we can have a reasonable democracy." — that unfortunately tends to happen at the expense of efficiency. People on lower levels of responsibility tend to think they know what the company should do, but in reality they usually simply lack information for making those decisions. That's why hierarchies actually work.

(Unless I completely misunderstand what you're saying, in which case, fuck the medium :-) )

@yogthos @clacke no, I certainly didn't imply totalitarian regimes are efficient :-)

Sacrificing *some* efficiency in the workplace is totally fine, but I do believe it's better achieved by setting legal limits on what businesses can do, instead of trying actual democracy. Because that would not just reduce efficiency, but completely kill any ability to achieve results.

@clacke @yogthos a century sounds like a stretch. It only started to happen in 1970s, I believe, when Reagan and Thatcher went hard right, while a few other European countries played with left ideas and settled on what they are now. So far it looks like it works better than US in particular. And I certainly don't expect a perfect utopian society in such a short time.

Remember, most people are still going to be jerks towards other people, it's hard to overcome that.

@isagalaev @yogthos The Social Democratic Party has been in charge of Sweden since 1936, with 3--8-year interruptions in the 70s, 90s and 10s. So ok, 80 years.

@clacke @yogthos I should look into that, thanks. One thing, the name of a party doesn't necessarily mean it does what we might expect :-)

@isagalaev @yogthos Good point!

I think it can generally be said that until the 70s the Social Democrats did indeed try to implement socialism through democratic means.

The 70s is when they first lost power to a coalition of centrists, liberals and liberal-conservatives, due to income taxes being too high.

Socialization peaked when the Social Democrats under pressure from the unions implemented Worker's Funds ("löntagagarfonder") in 1983 for the unions to be awarded shares in the companies where their members worked.

Since then, the Swedish economy has gradually liberalized, in particular under a right-wing coalition again in 1991-1994 and under the Social Democrats in 1998. This has resulted in faster growing GDP, at the cost of greater income disparity.
@isagalaev @yogthos Good point!

I think it can generally be said that until the 70s the Social Democrats did indeed try to implement socialism through democratic means.

The 70s is when they first lost power to a coalition of centrists, liberals and liberal-conservatives, due to income taxes being too high.

Socialization peaked when the Social Democrats under pressure from the unions implemented Worker's Funds ("löntagagarfonder") in 1983 for the unions to be awarded shares in the companies where their members worked.

Since then, the Swedish economy has gradually liberalized, in particular under a right-wing coalition again in 1991-1994 and under the Social Democrats in 1998. This has resulted in faster growing GDP, at the cost of greater income disparity.
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