Does mainstream Permaculture philosophy include computers?

What's the maximum sustainable global population and civilisation following Permaculture principles.

Is it more or less than the minimum global population and civilisation that can support a chip foundry?

@jbond Seems like that's entirely dependent on technology level. Victorian technology couldn't support a chip founders no matter the resources it used. Vinge's The Peace War has chip foundries and supercomputers using very little energy, because they had to.

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@seanl It's a stepping off point for discussion.

I don't think chip foundries and hence automation should be put at the pinnacle of the pyramid of human achievement. But there's still a huge base set of activity required to support all the activities that eventually result in the chip foundry.

Yes, Permaculture is prone to poverty tourism. But "Sustainable" is still necessary. In the long run (>100 years, <1m years), it's sustainability or nothing.

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@jbond The problem with the traditional notion of sustainability is that it assumes no improvement in technology. In the 1880s people predicted that by 1980 we'd be neck-deep in horse shit. There are plenty of wasteful practices that could be eliminated by minor tweaks in policy, like higher extraction royalties and a carbon tax, that would give us more breathing room before we're reliant on further technological progress to save us.

@jbond If we're still bound to this planet for even the next 200 years I think we're screwed. Not because I think it will become unlivable in that time but because if we can't do it by then there's something seriously wrong with humanity.

@seanl Space is big. The gravity well is deep. Space is extremely hostile to meat sacks. (for three). So I wonder where you think humans will go and in what numbers within the next 200 years.

Meanwhile, there's a few billion who won't be going anywhere.

@jbond It may end up being our mechanized descendants who end up spreading to the stars. But living in space ans getting around the solar system seem pretty solvable.

@seanl Interesting stepping off point here.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bright_g

Bright green environmentalism is an ideology based on the belief that the convergence of technological change and social innovation provides the most successful path to sustainable development.

This grew out of Bruce Sterling's Viridian Design Movement.

@jbond Thanks for the pointer! I haven't read the Wikipedia page yet but it sounds like a lot of the concepts in Distraction (one of my favorite books) are related.

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