I've made a deliberate choice against a quoting feature because it inevitably adds toxicity to people's behaviours. You are tempted to quote when you should be replying, and so you speak at your audience instead of with the person you are talking to. It becomes performative. Even when doing it for "good" like ridiculing awful comments, you are giving awful comments more eyeballs that way. No quote toots. Thank's
@espectalll Well, it almost seems worse to NOT notify you when someone is talking about you -- the easiest answer is to make it non-obvious. Toots already show previews, so you can still talk about it to your followers, but that makes it a conscious decision rather than something you do absent-mindedly.
@LinuxSocist @Gargron People can still do that regardless, but I can get why it could be an incentive to have an easy-to-use button. Still, if you don't send a notification when someone is quoted, that behavior should stay properly controlled.
Anyway, I propose those kinds of users get banned from their nodes for spam, and those nodes get banned if not doing anything (??????)
@Gargron But here comes another problem: if someone need to let his/her audience know that toot, but they are speaking another language than the original toot, is it right to use comments? I think at this situation quotes are better because commenting using another language seems unrespectful.
For example, if I wrote a comment here in Chinese to explain your ideas to my audiences, (I think) it may make you or other people feel uncomfortable.
@Gargron Don't worry, I hear that.
But same goes for the research. Anyone can index an account. What I'm saying is, whatever the platform, you should always pay attention to what you're posting. Always. And no platform should give the false impression you're safe if your content is publicly available.
@a_breakin_glass @gargron is exhibit typical poor judgment here: "it _might_ be abused" is a poor reason not to implement a feature that I've seen used mostly to good purpose. instead people are resorting to the "repost, then add a LB post in explanation or commentary" which breaks the link between the reposted content and the commentary.
@mona @a_breakin_glass it's not about whether it *can* be misused—everything can be misused. It's about the behaviors the platform encourages and rewards. twitter is built for "engagement", which inherently drives conflicts and outrage as emergent behaviors, because they generate more clicks and eyeballs.
mastodon doesn't do that, mastodon doesn't *want* to do that. ever.
I was just answering a question that multiple new people asked me, it's not like I *just* made the decision. Didn't expect this toot to blow up of all things haha. This has been my position since that feature was requested for the first time more than a year ago
@a_breakin_glass I have not changed my position on search one bit. I have implemented a form of search that fits my vision. Like literally, this search just saves you scrolling through your notifications or your own profile or your favourites, nothing else.
You can really stop @'ing me about it.
@a_breakin_glass ...okay so, as an admin, how is this any easier to abuse as an admin than just running a db query is now?
@isagalaev @Gargron Same opinion for me, as for simple links, in a way. Quotes are neutral, it's the comments on them or the context that are not. Moreover, quotes are not necessarily (lead to) toxic, as quoting jokes or poetry. It's a manner to respect the author (quoting his name too with the text).
nazis, social media Show more
@Gargron thank you
I feel like mentioning that I've seen someone on Twitter tell her followers that she regularly gets dms from nazis asking to fake drama and call them out so long as she quotes their tweet.
turns out giving a nazi with a failing YouTube channel a bunch of attention is good enough for them that they'll pay you for it. (they can't lose an audience they don't have, so even 90% negative reactions won't hurt them if they gain even a few eyes.)
@Gargron Can I just thank you? It bothers me when people quoted my bird site post to alert their audience that my opinion was stupid. It could be used for replying to a common question which you want your entire audience to see (if you're a YouTube content creator for example), but other than that, it just makes the site worse.
@gargron i get it. imo, leaving valuable features out solely for behavioral hacking purposes can't be sustained indefinitely, but i think mastodon will be fine without this one for a good while. eventually instances will all patch it in if you don't, though.
@Gargron Yay! Now I can tag people without potentially annoying thread participants. But in a way that's oblique enough to not invite asinine behavior. I gotta say, I would like to have a quote feature but I quit Twitter so long ago I had no idea it led to so much unpleasantness. So good on ya for keeping it out. @DialMforMara
I absolutely agree with you on this.
And thank you so much for everything you do for us!
Eso lo dice Vd.
En fin, como desee.
Estás cosas se hacen y punto creo yo, pues sabe u sabemos que hay opiniones divididas al respecto.
Casi nunca citó un mensaje, no me gusta, pero hay personas que si.
Ahí está el "problema".
Si quiere hacer algo hágalo.
No vamos a cambiar su manera de pensar ni Vd va a cambiar la manera de pensar de los demás.
@spla no crec que sigui tòxic per això només.
No ho acabo d'entendre. Mes aviat diu que s difícil seguir els fills quan es cita i les converses es fan molt difícils de seguir i esdevenen tòxiques.
M'ha semblat entendre, el meu angles es molt fluix i casi sempre haig de tirar de traductor.
I'm not sure I agree. Quoting wasn't a problem in the Usenet days IMO.
@gargron The main reason I'd like to boost+quote is to be able to, for example, boost a cosplay picture and tag a friend so they get notified about it (while also sharing it with my followers).
What's the proper way to do this on Mastodon?
(From anyone; I'm just not sure :)
@Gargron I don't know that this will achieve the desired result, but I appreciate that you're trying, that you're thinking about what makes people adopt toxic behaviours. Thank you.
I think one of the biggest challenges is signal:noise ratio. When I read Twitter with RTs hidden (thanks, Twidere) it isn't all that bad.
@Gargron People tend to use images to accomplish that... or so it my experience anyway. A quote would be a boost where you would be able to explain why you boosted a post.
I still find it as a sensible decision. Even if it is just a tiny bit more cumbersome to add an image. That tiny bit might just be enough to limit the use of it that way.
The biggest reason though why we don't see much of that kind of shit on Mastodon is the culture of the network.
@Gargron: I've made a deliberate choice against a quoting feature because it inevitably adds toxicity to people's behaviours.[...]
I think that a "reply with quote" could be sufficient middle ground.
@Gargron I too have started to file "quote replying" under "abusive behaviour" long ago. One of many reasons I left. It's one of those Twitter features that, while not being completely without legitimate uses, is routinely being abused with ca. 99% probability. "Manual" quoting (i.e. pasting a link) is so tedious it tends to not encourage the same kind of nasty behaviour, IOW people tend to just not do it. The UI feature made it mainstream.
i do wish there was a way to add new cws to boosts, since that was the main functionality of quote tweeting for me back in the day, whereas here there's toots that i just sadly, quietly let pass me by instead of boosting without warnings. but i appreciate any attempt to avoid the constant antagonism of twitter
Thanks for letting me know. I always like to know when someone is trying to influence my behaviour.
On that note, would you be willing to put together a list of all the design decisions you've made for Mastodon with the intent of influencing how users behave?
I think, in the interests of transparency, it'd be real neat.
@Gargron If applied as it is on birdsite, I find it makes following conversations much more difficult as it severely messes with threading. So unless you're willing to dig back into the history, post-by-post, it's easier to simply take the person's word that they're not taking things out of context.
So both from a useability and toxicity point of view, quote-toots would be a bad idea unless done in a dramatically different way.