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Eugen @Gargron

I've made a deliberate choice against a quoting feature because it inevitably adds toxicity to people's behaviours. You are tempted to quote when you should be replying, and so you speak at your audience instead of with the person you are talking to. It becomes performative. Even when doing it for "good" like ridiculing awful comments, you are giving awful comments more eyeballs that way. No quote toots. Thank's

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@Gargron i have a tendency to seriously abuse the quote function on twatter as many others do so yeah, good call

@Gargron that's actually the smartest thing ive ever read thats srsly amazing twitter could never :toot:

@Gargron We'll just have to copy and paste links the old fashioned way until it's fixed.

@Gargron Funny thing, I already can do the same in Mastodon: toot my message with a link to the original toot. I don't need to notify the author of the quoted toot, anyway.

It may be not as visually clean, but it works.

@espectalll @Gargron it even puts in a preview card, AFAIK (albeit not in timeline views)

@calvin @Gargron It does, as Mastodon adds the necessary Open Graph metadata.

@espectalll @Gargron that's fine but it shouldn't be default behavior

@espectalll Like, having it be included in the UI as a button, so that more people can do it without any thought or extra work.

@trwnh I personally think the worst part of quoting on Twitter is sending a notification to the author of the quoted tweet - it'd probably not be a bad thing for anyone you only end up addressing only your public.

@trwnh I personally think the worst part of quoting on Twitter is sending a notification to the author of the quoted tweet - it'd probably not be a bad thing for anyone if it's made in a way that makes you only talk to your followers.

@trwnh Yes, I know, toxic behavior, sure. I'm still unsure. Oh well.

@espectalll Well, it almost seems worse to NOT notify you when someone is talking about you -- the easiest answer is to make it non-obvious. Toots already show previews, so you can still talk about it to your followers, but that makes it a conscious decision rather than something you do absent-mindedly.

@Gargron (also, now that I notice: could you make it possible to drag an URL into the search box? That would be useful quoting or not)

@espectalll @Gargron The twitter style quoting has ended up creating quote reply threads that make it near impossible to get the context of what people were saying. I'd prefer the method of just quoting a link and having only direct replies.

@LinuxSocist @Gargron People can still do that regardless, but I can get why it could be an incentive to have an easy-to-use button. Still, if you don't send a notification when someone is quoted, that behavior should stay properly controlled.

Anyway, I propose those kinds of users get banned from their nodes for spam, and those nodes get banned if not doing anything (??????)

@espectalll @Gargron It was the notification of the quote that sparked the onionisation of twitter, before that quoting wasn't all that bad.

@MPurpureus On a toot, right-click on its time tag. Copy the link and paste it into a new toot.

@espectalll That's what I thought, but it seemed like the wrong way to do it

@MPurpureus Welp, there's no other "right way" if Gargron doesn't want to implement it.

@Gargron that's *actually* very clever. thank u!!

@Gargron very beautiful said everything

@Gargron now im reflecting and yes quoting can be really toxic bc it can lead to a wave of ridicularization of what people say or show on social media i use it a lot there (not in this way of couse lol) so it will be missed but i can fully understand why

@Gargron This is a good decision. More than just spreading bad ideas, quoting encourages snark instead of sincerity. It's so toxic on twitter in part, I believe, because of quote tweets.

@a_breakin_glass @Gargron Snark _is_ horrible and I'm glad that Mastodon isn't structured to encourage it. Social networks should encourage sincerity and a sense of earnest care.

@ashfurrow @gargron one person's method of relieving tension is another's horrible I guess.

and I doubt a social network can encourage sincerity, tbh, for a variety of reasons. the façade constructed by social media in-and-of-itself for one.

@a_breakin_glass You don't think that software can be designed to encourage types of behaviour eh? Or discourage it?

@ashfurrow I just don't think _social media_ can overcome that particular behavior

@a_breakin_glass that’s not what I said, let’s leave the goalposts where they are. Can software be designed to encourage or discourage behaviour in its users?

@Gargron quote rts was one of the most toxic things to happen to twitter. it was a real tipping point into nastiness!

@Gargron But here comes another problem: if someone need to let his/her audience know that toot, but they are speaking another language than the original toot, is it right to use comments? I think at this situation quotes are better because commenting using another language seems unrespectful.
For example, if I wrote a comment here in Chinese to explain your ideas to my audiences, (I think) it may make you or other people feel uncomfortable.

@KayMW Oh people sometimes do that, I'm okay with that.

But you don't need a quote-toot for that, you can just say in Chinese "Gargron said he rejected the idea of quote-toots" and eventually link to the original toot, but it doesn't warrant a quote-toot feature.
Yes, but it isn't, and that's where the buck stops for @Gargron, and I fully support this idea.

@Gargron Yet screenshots are the same, and even worse I think. In fine, this choice doesn't do much about toxicity.

@wonderfall The difference is whether the platform legitimizes, facilitates & encourages it. You can take a screenshot of anything... You can link to toots... But it's not black and white, intentionality in UX matters

@Gargron Don't worry, I hear that.

But same goes for the research. Anyone can index an account. What I'm saying is, whatever the platform, you should always pay attention to what you're posting. Always. And no platform should give the false impression you're safe if your content is publicly available.

@Gargron So my point was just about efficiency, not about intentionality. You've made your point.

I just feel people are misunderstanding, hence my last message.

@gargron it’s bad form to take authorship over an open source project but I’ll allow it this time

@Gargron Thank you for the well considered decision.!

Quoting is the equivalent of talking about someone to others while the person is standing right there. It's condescending and juvenile.

@Gargron (Continue to the last comment) The question you said really exists, but there still is a need for quote. I haven't find a better solution yet. XD

@gargron people'll just screenshot anyway, and at least with quote toots someone KNOWS what's being said about them; with screenshots, it's all behind the back

@a_breakin_glass @gargron is exhibit typical poor judgment here: "it _might_ be abused" is a poor reason not to implement a feature that I've seen used mostly to good purpose. instead people are resorting to the "repost, then add a LB post in explanation or commentary" which breaks the link between the reposted content and the commentary.

@mona @a_breakin_glass it's not about whether it *can* be misused—everything can be misused. It's about the behaviors the platform encourages and rewards. twitter is built for "engagement", which inherently drives conflicts and outrage as emergent behaviors, because they generate more clicks and eyeballs.

mastodon doesn't do that, mastodon doesn't *want* to do that. ever.

@a_breakin_glass @mona anyway this is literally a year old discussion that gargron is just summarizing because new people have been asking about it, for context. it's not really worth arguing about.

@nightpool @mona @a_breakin_glass plus also having layered quotes is *also* breaking the link/context. it might theoretically work if quotes also acted as children linked to the original, but it's a moot point because there's intentional friction here

@trwnh @a_breakin_glass @mona @nightpool Quote toots as a feature should be avoided, but there should be client-side inline expansion of links to other public (&unlisted, I guess) fediverse posts.

I was just answering a question that multiple new people asked me, it's not like I *just* made the decision. Didn't expect this toot to blow up of all things haha. This has been my position since that feature was requested for the first time more than a year ago

@Gargron I didn't know a decision has been made against this feature so it's great you tooted

>changes position on search which is still easily abusable by admins
>refuses to budge in position on something even less abusable

le wat

@a_breakin_glass you're not making a lot of sense. Admins have always been able to search things on their own server, that's just something you do with databases

@a_breakin_glass I have not changed my position on search one bit. I have implemented a form of search that fits my vision. Like literally, this search just saves you scrolling through your notifications or your own profile or your favourites, nothing else.

You can really stop @'ing me about it.

@a_breakin_glass ...okay so, as an admin, how is this any easier to abuse as an admin than just running a db query is now?

@a_breakin_glass The version of search that was actually implemented is *very* constrained—it just indexes the toots you have interacted with.

I don't know what the "abusable by admins" thing is about; it's only indexing toots that are already in the database...

@Gargron yeah i assumed

still good to thank you for it and tell ya why i agree with ya

@Gargron well, I understand you, but quoting is also linking, the root of the web

@Gargron but what is a boost, if not a quote?

@isagalaev @Gargron

a boost still allows the original creator to destroy the original toot

if I boost your toot and you delete it, the boost boosts nothing

if I quote it and you delete it, the quote is still there

@isagalaev @Gargron Same opinion for me, as for simple links, in a way. Quotes are neutral, it's the comments on them or the context that are not. Moreover, quotes are not necessarily (lead to) toxic, as quoting jokes or poetry. It's a manner to respect the author (quoting his name too with the text).

nazis, social media Show more

@Gargron Can I just thank you? It bothers me when people quoted my bird site post to alert their audience that my opinion was stupid. It could be used for replying to a common question which you want your entire audience to see (if you're a YouTube content creator for example), but other than that, it just makes the site worse.

@Gargron the funniest tweets are still the one quoting another

@gargron i get it. imo, leaving valuable features out solely for behavioral hacking purposes can't be sustained indefinitely, but i think mastodon will be fine without this one for a good while. eventually instances will all patch it in if you don't, though.

What I would want a quote feature for is to say "@third_party you will like this" without bothering the original poster with the extra ping of a reply. What do you suggest as an alternative?

@DialMforMara @Gargron Agreed, like on IG they have a button to send any one post to a specific user, as a direct message.

@DialMforMara Yesss I sometimes want to point somebody to a thread and don't know if I can reply to the thread but then make it a DM to just the user who would be interested? Does removing the mentions of everybody else break the link to the thread? @Gargron

@Gargron Yay! Now I can tag people without potentially annoying thread participants. But in a way that's oblique enough to not invite asinine behavior. I gotta say, I would like to have a quote feature but I quit Twitter so long ago I had no idea it led to so much unpleasantness. So good on ya for keeping it out. @DialMforMara

@DialMforMara sharing the link? i don't think it needs to be a dedicated feature if it's not notifying that person or being added as a child


I absolutely agree with you on this.

And thank you so much for everything you do for us!

@Gargron I've never thought about that, but you are right. That's what we all can see in Twitter actually.

@Gargron @irisjaycomics Hooooooly shit thank you! Seriously! That is LITERALLY one of the biggest reasons I left Twitter!

Though I disagree with you, I respect your decision 😏

@Gargron But it is very useful to translate messages, so you can share things you read in an other language.

Eso lo dice Vd.

En fin, como desee.

Estás cosas se hacen y punto creo yo, pues sabe u sabemos que hay opiniones divididas al respecto.

Casi nunca citó un mensaje, no me gusta, pero hay personas que si.

Ahí está el "problema".
Si quiere hacer algo hágalo.
No vamos a cambiar su manera de pensar ni Vd va a cambiar la manera de pensar de los demás.

King regards.

@coloco estic molt d’acord amb ell, citar el que ha escrit algú és una de les coses que ha fet que Twitter sigui el que és, un lloc tòxic. És perfecte que no hagin volgut que Mastodon tingui aquesta opció

@spla no crec que sigui tòxic per això només.

No ho acabo d'entendre. Mes aviat diu que s difícil seguir els fills quan es cita i les converses es fan molt difícils de seguir i esdevenen tòxiques.
M'ha semblat entendre, el meu angles es molt fluix i casi sempre haig de tirar de traductor.

@coloco per això dic que és una de les coses...😉

@spla si si, ho es. De vegades obres tuits citats i dins en hi ha mes de citats amb les seves respostes corresponents i es gairebe impossible aclarir-te, al final acabo pasant de aquestes converses precisament per el que diu en Gargrom.

@spla a mi també em sobra aquesta opció, no li veig el que.

Ja es podia citar manualment diríem, copiant el enllaç del tuit que volies citar i ficant-lo dins el teu tuit amb el missatge.

@coloco això fan alguns, a mi no m’agrada gens

@spla a mi tampoc company, estem d'acord.

per cert, bon dia i bon diumenge.

I'm still really grateful for this stance.

@RobF @Gargron On birbsite I’ve used it to mainly to reinforce amazing stuff and events by adding my own take on why it’s so great. But yeah, it can easily facilitate nastiness. So I get the reason, and thank you!

@clhendricksbc @Gargron

Every now and then I'll slip on a quote tweet and it never ends up anything but messy. Having that pressure removed kinda saves me from my more idiot self.

I'm not sure I agree. Quoting wasn't a problem in the Usenet days IMO.

Good idea.
I want the option to always see the the toots on my TL. None of this "see more".

@gargron The main reason I'd like to boost+quote is to be able to, for example, boost a cosplay picture and tag a friend so they get notified about it (while also sharing it with my followers).

What's the proper way to do this on Mastodon?

(From anyone; I'm just not sure :)

@PrincessRaspberry to share with followers? boost it. to share it with a single person? reply to the toot but remove the original mentions (like i just removed gargron). you can also change the privacy to "direct" if you want it directed just at the people you mention.

@trwnh Sure, but what I'm curious about is the Mastodon equivalent of "quoted retweet", so a boost with comment.

@trwnh Yes, I understand that. That's why I'm asking what the convention here is to do if I want to share a toot with my followers but add thoughts to it.

@PrincessRaspberry Basically to do those two actions separately, rather than altogether. Either you reply and boost (to notify), or you paste a link (to not notify)

@Gargron I don't know that this will achieve the desired result, but I appreciate that you're trying, that you're thinking about what makes people adopt toxic behaviours. Thank you.

I think one of the biggest challenges is signal:noise ratio. When I read Twitter with RTs hidden (thanks, Twidere) it isn't all that bad.

@Gargron @maloki the only toots i ever usually quote are my own

@Gargron please never ever ever add them and stick to your guns

signed a harassment victim


>a deliberate choice against a quoting feature

>it inevitably adds toxicity to people's behaviours


@Gargron Can I just say thanks for thinking about it that way. I've been here a while and it's still refreshing to have social networking that's built for people to actually be social.

@Gargron People tend to use images to accomplish that... or so it my experience anyway. A quote would be a boost where you would be able to explain why you boosted a post.

I still find it as a sensible decision. Even if it is just a tiny bit more cumbersome to add an image. That tiny bit might just be enough to limit the use of it that way.

The biggest reason though why we don't see much of that kind of shit on Mastodon is the culture of the network.

@Gargron: I've made a deliberate choice against a quoting feature because it inevitably adds toxicity to people's behaviours.[...]


I think that a "reply with quote" could be sufficient middle ground.

@oreolek you could just reply normally and then boost your reply for your followers to see


I, for one, thank you for making that choice.

@Gargron I too have started to file "quote replying" under "abusive behaviour" long ago. One of many reasons I left. It's one of those Twitter features that, while not being completely without legitimate uses, is routinely being abused with ca. 99% probability. "Manual" quoting (i.e. pasting a link) is so tedious it tends to not encourage the same kind of nasty behaviour, IOW people tend to just not do it. The UI feature made it mainstream.

@Gargron Heavens forbid someone wants to add a content warning to something.

i do wish there was a way to add new cws to boosts, since that was the main functionality of quote tweeting for me back in the day, whereas here there's toots that i just sadly, quietly let pass me by instead of boosting without warnings. but i appreciate any attempt to avoid the constant antagonism of twitter

Dear @Gargron

Thanks for letting me know. I always like to know when someone is trying to influence my behaviour.

On that note, would you be willing to put together a list of all the design decisions you've made for Mastodon with the intent of influencing how users behave?

I think, in the interests of transparency, it'd be real neat.


@Gargron If applied as it is on birdsite, I find it makes following conversations much more difficult as it severely messes with threading. So unless you're willing to dig back into the history, post-by-post, it's easier to simply take the person's word that they're not taking things out of context.

So both from a useability and toxicity point of view, quote-toots would be a bad idea unless done in a dramatically different way.