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Eric A. Meyer

If Apple sticks to their declared intentions, web devs outside the EU won’t be able to test their sites/webapps/whatever against the non-WebKit iOS browsers that will exist in the EU.

So, get ready for aggressive browser sniffing and “best viewed in/please switch to” badges making a comeback, because those are easy responses to this. Not good responses, at all, but humans are nothing if not lazy.

@Meyerweb I mean, in the EU, I expect most websites to just put a “best viewed in Chrome” sticker on their websites and be done with cross browser testing. I give Safari and Firefox a maximum of 5 years here. No browser diversity by 2030.

@Meyerweb @yatil it feels a bit weird to postulate apples browser ban to be the only thing that protects people from googles browser monopoly. Maybe I misunderstand though.

@nachtfunke @Meyerweb Having Chrome available on iOS means websites (especially the ones owned by Google) can force users to install Chrome. This has happened before. Browser diversity needs protection from pure market forces, we see that on the desktop. I’m not happy with not having browser diversity, but I also think websites have much more power here, especially the big players.

@yatil @nachtfunke @Meyerweb the Digital Markets Act should prevent Chrome from being the default Android web browser theverge.com/2024/1/17/2404158 I hope that Act also restricts pushing Chrome on Google's websites, but I haven't seen mentions of it.

The Verge · Google Search, Chrome, and Android are all changing thanks to EU antitrust lawBy Jon Porter

@yatil @nachtfunke @Meyerweb You're accusing Chrome of _potentially_ doing what Safari is doing right now (preventing diversity and user choice)... which you seem fine with?

@mikamtb @nachtfunke @Meyerweb Read my post again. Especially the last sentence. It might help your understanding.

@yatil @nachtfunke @Meyerweb Thanks for replying but I still don't get it. The outcome you talk of (Chrome takes over and kills browser diversity) is a potential outcome of a scenario that *might* play out (Google forces people to install Chrome), and yet the consequences are the same as today's situation: everyone uses the same browser and politics make like hard for devs. 🤷

@mikamtb @nachtfunke @Meyerweb But today not everyone uses the same browser. And no single company has the power to push their browser onto a specific sections of users. Apple can’t push Safari on Windows or Android (also looks like they don’t want to… different topic), Chrome can’t be pushed on iOS but everywhere else. In the future Chrome can be set as a requirement everywhere. That is a fundamentally different situation.

@yatil @nachtfunke @Meyerweb It depends how you define those sections. To use another browser, iPhone owner must buy a different device. I would call this Apple having "the power to push their browser onto a specific sections of users", and the EU seems to agree, as they ruled that illegal.

If Apple can't make a browser that can compete with Chrome without artificially propping it up, perhaps it isn't that good in the first place. I hate to say this (I do), but let's let the market decide.

@yatil @nachtfunke @Meyerweb I wish FF was 33% of the market as much as many devs, and Chrome is not my thing but I don't think Google's websites are how they won users over. It's more of a question of marketing and hiring thousands of developers to work on it and to provide a firehose of new APIs. Which Apple could do, but chooses not to because the web platform is too much of a threat to their App Store ecosystem.
This is the core of the problem really.

@mikamtb @nachtfunke @Meyerweb Chrome got an advertisement spot on Google search when Google search was 98% of the market.

Apple choses to not run after Chrome’s obsession with introducing niche APIs and they don’t need to. Web apps are really not that good. On my Mac Chrome created apps do not support simple system integration. And still I use web applications with no problem in Safari every single day without any problems.

@mikamtb @yatil you mean a firehose of proprietary APIs. Can’t put my finger on it, but that sounds like a situation we had before with different players and somehow that one was bad but this one isn’t.

@mikamtb @nachtfunke @Meyerweb Most users don’t buy iPhones. The market has decided this.

And no, Google has artificially slowed other browsers down through their ad network to promote Chrome and make it look quicker. This is not a level playing field.

@nachtfunke @mikamtb @Meyerweb Agreed. But that regulation has not happened. If we really wanted to have browser engine competition, Chrome would need to be spun out of Google. Otherwise Chrome will always do Google’s business interests.

@yatil @nachtfunke @Meyerweb I would very much welcome this, but then Chrome on its own will need a way to make money and I'm not sure we'd like what that would look like.

@mikamtb @nachtfunke @Meyerweb Optimally it would be a non-profit, funded by its users. I’m not sure if that is super realistic tho.

@Meyerweb Perhaps we can make those illegal as well :P

@grigs “This page best viewed in my browser”

@Meyerweb There should be limited differences in terms of web standard support between eg. Gecko_Firefox/Android and Gecko_Firefox/iOS though. There will be edge cases due to platform integration but will that be worse than on desktop OSes?

@fabrice There should be, but aren’t always, and I (in the US) won’t be able to verify that via testing as new features are added. That’s very different to desktop browsers.

@Meyerweb @lisamelton I look forward to our glorious future, which can justify going back to having one browser engine for security and ease of use.

@Meyerweb oh… oh dang I didn’t even think of that.

I’ll need to test on all browsers, and I’m not in the EU. Heck. Hecking heck.

@Meyerweb or “wontfix: switch to the AppStore Firefox”

@Meyerweb I see it further fragmenting what was once the "worldwide" web, along geopolitical borders. As an Ohioan who lived in Europe for the past four years and now lives in Thailand, the geopolitical fragmentation of the web has become glaringly apparent. 🥲

@Meyerweb
I've already seen a 'best used with chrome' badge on a U.S. state government website.

Of course, that site works just fine in Firefox.

@Meyerweb isn’t that the case already?
Google’s Chrome (or rather Blink) monopoly means websites do that already. Firefox and Safari’s experience being degraded at times and nobody caring isn’t that new 😅

@Meyerweb I would speculate that if you want to test a site in Chrome / Firefox mobile you can do so on Android. In *theory* both iOS and Android should render identically.
Safari is the Internet Explorer 6 of browsers at the moment, so ultimately this move can only be a positive one.

@Meyerweb I already experience this in FireFox on some sites 😭

@Meyerweb @ianbetteridge Wait, Apple is allowing (or being forced to allow) non-WebKit iOS browsers? Since when? That’s awesome for Firefox.

Edit: nvm found it. theverge.com/2024/1/25/2405047

Didn’t realise the DMA changes would force opening up choices beyond WebKit, I thought Apple would just have to offer a different default browser. This makes me love the DMA more!

The Verge · Apple is allowing alternative browser engines in iOS 17.4 — but only in the EU
More from David Pierce

@Meyerweb holy crap, have you seen the new App Store terms, though?

Even if your app is free, "Developers who achieve exceptional scale on iOS in the EU will pay a Core Technology Fee of €0.50 for each first annual install over one million in the past 12 months."

I would assume that is bad news for Firefox, who I hope have more than 1 million installs in the EU.

developer.apple.com/support/fe

developer.apple.comFee calculator for apps in the EU - Support - Apple Developer