1/2 I have deactivated my account on Twitter (X), which began in 2007. Under Elon Musk, Twitter has not only decided to stop blocking bigots and liars and pro-insurrectionists, it has actively welcomed them, with apparent support from Mr. Musk.
@waltmossberg This speaks volumes, Walt. X is indeed a cesspool and your leadership here will have a big impact.
This is an existential moment for the web and the concept of open standards like #ActivityPub
Thankfully @Gargron has labored for years to create a viable approach that could form the foundation for an open social web. And many here are working to make the user experience simpler and more approachable for mainstream users.
Your presence on @Mastodon is incredibly important now.
@mike @Gargron @Mastodon Thanks, Mike. I’ve been on Mastodon quite awhile, as you know. But I rarely used it, because (a) it can be confounding to use (yes, I can figure it all out, but you know I favor things average folks can grok quickly) and (b) content moderation matters hugely to me and I need to know what the policies are for multiple servers and who is responsible….
@mike @Gargron @Mastodon …here’s an example of the complexity here: I just tried to react to a post about my leaving Twitter, and was met with a big notice saying I couldn’t do that because I wasn’t logged into the server where it lived. I thought all the posts and replies were interchangeable among servers.
@waltmossberg @mike @Mastodon I appreciate the feedback. The notice doesn't say you can't, it tells you how to do it. That notice has been reworked in the latest beta, as visible on mastodon.social—curious to know if you'd consider that an improvement.
@Gargron @mike @Mastodon I’ll let you know what I think when I see it. I don’t use betas. But, just by your description, it sounds like a chore. Please understand I’m not denigrating all your hard work here, but after 27 years of reviewing tech products for average people, I react poorly to requiring instructions for simple tasks. Are conversations and reactions here between people on different servers interchangeable or not?
@waltmossberg @mike @Mastodon Yes. Your account is on mastodon.world. You are conversing with me, whose account is on mastodon.social, and Mike, whose is on flipboard.social. Totally separate infrastructure, but your post just pops up in my notifications.
@Gargron @mike @Mastodon So then why did I get that big ugly notice before? I can’t recall to whom I was trying to respond or what server they were on. As you can imagine, I’m getting a lot of traffic from people I don’t know or follow because of my decision to ditch Twitter. I assume I can easily respond to any of them.
@waltmossberg @mike @Mastodon Presumably you opened a post on its original website, which was not the same website where your account is. That website has no idea who you are. The notice gives you a pointer how to open the same post in your own website where you are logged in. You can navigate to mastodon.social and try interacting with any post to see what the new notice looks like.
@waltmossberg @Gargron That message instructs you to copy the URL into the search field on the server you are logged into (copy button provided). This will bring up the post on your server. Now you can interact with that post to your heart's content (reply, boost, favorite).
Follow that account if you wish to interact with that user in the future without taking those steps.
A few extra steps, but once you are comfortable with how the distributed service works, it's easy-peasy.
@digginjazz @waltmossberg @Gargron even after you get used to it, it is not as easy-peasy as simply interacting with the content on the site where you are viewing the content.
@schizanon @waltmossberg @Gargron
Of course, you are correct. I could site several oddities about Masto that require workarounds. But IMO, life is full of trade-offs and the respectful dialogue, no advertising or sponsored posts, no data collection, no algorithm dictating what or who you see make my Mastodon experience a joy.
I too have dropped my X account and no longer post to FB or IG.
@digginjazz @waltmossberg @Gargron we need to be honest about the problems. Dismissing them doesn't fix anything.
@Gargron @waltmossberg @mike @Mastodon there really needs to be a better solution here than ‘type your URL’. I don’t know what that is - some sort of identity cookie that does a redirect?
It’s much better in ‘apps’, like ivory, when you have it bounce into the app using universal links / extension.
@Gargron @waltmossberg @mike @Mastodon that does kinda sound like a chore.
I use the app on Android for 95% of my reading/interactions and I've never seen anything like that.
@waltmossberg @Gargron
Having used Mastodon for several months, my experience: It lacks the Twitter rush of virality & feel of all being in one "place." By far the biggest bump was what Eugen said: I'd follow someone from my "federated" timeline to their account on another instance, reply to a post & get bonked. After a few times, the steps to follow them on my instance & reply there became second nature. It does have a bit of a 1992-Usenet feel to it. People will respond differently to that.
@nnscott @waltmossberg How does it happen for you? You have to deliberately click on "Open original page" in the dropdown of a post to land on another website from any part of the app. I would have imagined that most people land on the wrong website through links shared on other channels like Telegram or Discord, not their Mastodon interface.
@Gargron @nnscott I appreciate all the advice about third-party apps for Mastodon that smooth over its complexities. But why should they be necessary? I’m on an iPad, using the app named “Mastodon for iPhone and iPad”, just like I use the app named, say, “LinkedIn”. I am sure that most mainstream folks would do the same. Is this not the official, default app? If so, it should support all features seamlessly. Alternate apps should be an option, not a necessity.
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott Curiosity becomes a rare commodity the further some journalists have to venture away from the monetizable aspects of access brokerage that arise from learning and reporting about commercial "silicon valley" ventures.
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott
Using Mastodon on ipad without an app. Works well here, even on a Mini
@waltmossberg @Gargron Yes, the goal should always be a smoother experience and consistency on all platforms, but let’s remember that Twitter’s official app is horrific compared to its now defunct third party clients. Instagram doesn’t even have an iPad or Mac app. To say that Mastodon’s official app should work seamlessly everywhere is a great goal, but has any other social media service truly achieved that? Let alone one with such a small team?
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott First, Walt, congrats on ditching Xitter. I post my Chronicle column there, don't engage, but I'm also thinking of killing the account.
Re: 3rd party apps. On principle, you shouldn't have to use them. But practically, they are much better than the official app, and make it a better experience - just as 3rd party apps improved the Twitter experience.
Did you use a 3rd party app when Xitter was Twitter and allowed them?
@dsilverman @Gargron @nnscott Yes, Tweetdeck when I was at the height of my career handling high volumes of Tweets. But that was a matter of scale and speed, not hiding confusing interconnection issues.
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott I think the official Mastodon app is *adequate* for what it does. But I found that 3rd party apps provided better feature sets so that's the direction I and many others headed. It's kind of like how people preferred to use Tweetdeck (and similar apps) to access Twitter in the pre-Musk era.
@StanWonn @Gargron @nnscott I get the comparison to Tweetdeck. But the official (pre-Musk) Twitter app handled everything you’d want to do, just not at the speed or scale of Tweetdeck. The helpful folks here who are recommending third party apps seem to be saying they overcome basic problems with using the default app, if I understand correctly.
@waltmossberg @StanWonn @Gargron @nnscott I don’t know if it’s about overcoming basic problems but making the experience more like Twitter used to be.
I struggled to grasp everything at the beginning too, but the 3rd party apps reminded me SO MUCH of the early days of Twitter where I was using Tweetbot on my iPhone 5.
I'm using a third party app exactly because it makes the experience more like old Twitter.
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott You don’t have to. The default app works fine, IMO. But, much like how in the early days of Twitter a lot of folks preferred the feature-rich TweetDeck to the official Twitter app, many Mastodon users like to use alternative apps that offer things like post quoting. (I use @IceCubesApp .)
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott You just found the difference between a community driven open source project and a multi billion dollar company backed app
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott valuable insight from Mr. Mossberg. At the end of the day if Mastodon wants to expand more mainstream, then concessions need to be made to simplify use and onboarding (work has happened already, thanks!). If only there were a layered approach to onboarding and features, so that a non tech savvy family member who is familiar with Twitter could be comfortable and not overwhelmed, while power users could still flex.
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott The first party app for Mastodon is pretty good but to be fair, Mona and Ivory are still much better and personally I hadn’t used the Twitter app since TweetBot initially came out. And I wouldn’t let the FB or LinkedIn apps touch my devices with a 10ft pole, lol.
Which to me kind of negates that argument?
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott Your point is fair, but you might be thinking you “need to” use a third-party app, where others see it as “get to.” The appeal for many of us is in the choices.
The official app is an example of how Mastodon can be, but it’s not the experience everyone wants, and that’s ok.
Just my 2 cents.
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott Great point! That said, my account got so much easier to use when I logged in via Mammoth instead of Mastadon (App not website) ... I’m amazed it’s not the default. I recommend it now to all my friends coming over from twitterverse. #mastodon
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott If you wound up in a web sheet (embedded browser) inside the app, it would have the same issue that @Gargron is discussing with using a browser directly. I've only hit the issue you're discussing when I am on a web page (including one embedded in an app). The trick is for the app not to use the embedded browser when it can display a post in the app itself; it's possible there's a case where the official app doesn't do that and wound up in a web sheet.
@waltmossberg
Gargron is doing all this on a tiny budget. If he had the resources I'm sure that official Mastodon would be way more feature rich. We are still in the early days of Mastodon in many ways and that's pretty cool because we keep getting new stuff that improves the user experience and that's fun.
You are right, that's probably not what Mainstream folks want but it is a Work In Progress.
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott I think you miss the point. Apps provide things not in the basic app provided by mastodon and may never be. Mastodon, to me, is a server product that has a basic Web and phone app. Not sure those apps were ever meant to be all encompassing. And how is mastodon so complex for super smart folks like you? ;-)
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott @Developmentdoc I am glad that the most respected tech journalist in the world is addressing the UX aspects of Mastodon. I am an MD, just looking to exchange scientific information with colleagues. I do not see why I should become an IT expert just to do that. But when a normal person like me points this out, one is treated like an ignoramus. I hope that Walt‘s voice will be more respected.
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott I think Mastodon and ActivityPub are better thought of as email or RSS. Open protocols that you use your own apps for. The app called “Mastodon” shouldn’t be considered the default. Because of how much worse the “official” app is at so many things, I think the responsible thing would be to rename or discontinue it entirely.
@nmn @Gargron @nnscott That is a *perfect* explanation, the kind of thing I’d write for mainstream users if I were reviewing it in my column. So why doesn’t Mastodon market itself that way? Just saying “Fediverse” or “Federated” doesn’t mean anything to 99% of people. @dangillmor
@waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott @dangillmor Yup. I avoid saying “Fediverse” or “Federated” as much as possible for that reason.
Imagine if we called email, “Imapiverse” for services that implemented IMAP. *shudders*
@waltmossberg @nmn @Gargron @nnscott @dangillmor Part of the problem is that there is still a strong contingent in the Mastodon priesthood that doesn't WANT to market it to anyone that they don't consider to be "the right kind of people" -- and would prefer that prospective users jump through hoops to prove their worthiness.
@lauren @waltmossberg @nmn @gargron @nnscott @dangillmor I remember when the AOL crowd showed up on the internets (usenet, mail servers). So I'm sympathetic.
(I was also nice to them, because they deserved that even if they did top-post, back before MS messed things up and basically made everyone do it.)
@waltmossberg @nmn @Gargron @nnscott @dangillmor
Never used anything but the Mastodon app on PC and Android and feel like it is pretty great. Some of the confusion may be due to the fact it looks different that Twitter. Also, the media criticism regarding "choosing a server" doesn't help. But if you just use it, and interact with any posts you want, it just works.
@mastodonmigration @waltmossberg @nmn @Gargron @nnscott @dangillmor
Is choosing a server a bit like choosing a BBS 40 years ago?
@TheDude @waltmossberg @nmn @Gargron @nnscott @dangillmor Maybe a little. But it really just doesn't matter very much. Some have better/different moderation policies, and some update versions more frequently. But mostly they all just work. If you choose a very small server or host your own, you may have some post visibility lag/issues. But really, don't worry about it. Just Mastodon!
@mastodonmigration @waltmossberg @Gargron @nnscott @dangillmor The big issue with many apps is that they don’t come with a browser extension that automatically opens any mastodon post on the web in the app.
@waltmossberg @tchambers @nmn @Gargron @nnscott @dangillmor I dare say Mastodon doesn’t market itself that way because there’s no one / no institution motivated to do marketing. On the other hand, there are a lot of frustrated ex-Twitterers (like me) wishing we could persuade everyone to come on over.
@JamesGleick @waltmossberg @tchambers @nmn @Gargron @nnscott @dangillmor I think they will (not that they’d know) once Threads federates provided you’re not on one of the close minded instances that intends to block them
@Gargron @nnscott @waltmossberg I encounter this regularly when I try to follow someone new whose post has been boosted into my timeline. Using the web interface, I click on the user name and am taken to the foreign web site. As far as I know I'm not clicking on "open on original page".
If this isn't what is supposed to happen, I'll pay closer attention next time to record the details
@Gargron @nnscott @waltmossberg It happened to me multiple times when someone add a link to another post on another instance inside his own post (as a workaround to quote someone else toot). when you click the link (or the preview) you are sent to the original poster website that can be another instance. There you get the banner if you want to interact with him. I have to admit I was a bit surprised by that at the begining.
@Gargron @nnscott @waltmossberg Perhaps mastodon could try to recognize links to other mastondon posts and redirect them trough the reader own website, instead of going to the other instance website trough the link, with an extra option to open the link "as is", in case you want the original behaviour.
@StephaneHuart @Gargron @nnscott @waltmossberg I also tend to share the original post links when sharing links to posts to friends, because I want it to be as "official" as possible. So, people would inevitably be confused by that if they already had an account and tried to interact.
@tealcows @Gargron @nnscott @waltmossberg Indeed, after clicking the UI seems to be nearly the same if you don't pay attention (apart from the fact that suddenly it looks like you are signed out of Mastodon,because as you have no identity on the instance you are looking at, you have the sign in button on the right, instead of the "home","notification",.. links). What is worse is that users could think they are ACTUALLY signed out and then proceed to try to sign in again, but on the wrong website
@tealcows @Gargron @nnscott @waltmossberg IMHO, this is a very confusing (and difficult to explain without understanding how instances works together) edge case for new users or people used to centralized networks. While I think the rest of the Mastodon UX does an incredible job at making you feel that everything is integrated together, this breaks the "continuity" of the experience. But I also understand the difficulties of improving such behaviour.
@waltmossberg @Gargron @mike @Mastodon I would propose to use @ivory, which made it feel like Twitter/X before the end of Tweetbot. Instantly felt at home.